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CrouchTPEngage
12-09-18, 15:09
Just wondering if other refs are being given similar advice as to "focus-points" for this season.
These are some notes I took from my previous meeting:
A theme seemed , to me, to help make turnovers more likely, at the breakdown.

1) Tackled player crawling/rolling - Tackled player, once grounded, should not make further movements such as rolling or crawling. This can make arriving defenders mis-time their jackal and sometimes look like they are going off-feet or putting hands on ground.

2) A ruck is now over when the ball is clearly available. So, when there are no players over the ball and the ball is on the ground, defenders can pick it up. Whilst still not allowed to play any SH who is attempting to play the ball, defending players can put their hands on a ball which is "open" due to the players in a recent ruck having fallen off their feet. Previously, some referees were telling defenders to leave the ball which is on the ground and yet clearly available after all other players are on ground.

3) Players who pickup the ball at a tackle must have both feet behind the ball. Once foot in front and one foot behind would be considered "in front" of the ball and hence offside.

4) Players competing for high kicked balls. A defender who doesnt jump for a ball but takes up the space , ready to catch a high ball will not be penalised if a would-be attacker leaps near him to try to catch a ball and there is contact. The defender must be in a realistic position to catch the ball. There was also mention that a jumping player must take responsibility for his their safety and cant win a penalty by leaping recklessly at a stationery defender.

5) Appealing for decisions - warn and sanction any repeated appeals to attempt to influence a referee's decision-making, unfairly.

6) Line-outs - watch for either side's players entering the gap as they change position just before a ball is thrown in. Some teams appear to be using this to gain advantage.

there were some others but these were the main points.
I was pretty impressed to be honest. These guidelines made total sense to me.

Balones
12-09-18, 17:09
I may have got this wrong but it seems to me that they are asking referees to apply and referee to the laws.��

Dickie E
12-09-18, 23:09
2) A ruck is now over when the ball is clearly available. So, when there are no players over the ball and the ball is on the ground, defenders can pick it up. Whilst still not allowed to play any SH who is attempting to play the ball, defending players can put their hands on a ball which is "open" due to the players in a recent ruck having fallen off their feet. Previously, some referees were telling defenders to leave the ball which is on the ground and yet clearly available after all other players are on ground.

what do the words "available" and "open" mean in this context?

crossref
13-09-18, 05:09
The word used for us was "exposed" and this is the WR slide

.If the ball is clearly exposed (people over ball??) or has emerged from the ruck, it is
deemed over, so, therefore, the ball can be played. If not, then the principle of ‘Once
a ruck always a ruck’ applies. However, the scrum half cannot be tackled without the
ball

It reminds me of the old "when a seagull can crap on it" which is not seen as a good definition nowadays.. until now perhap

I wonder what they mean by the principle of once a ruck always a ruck.

Dickie E
13-09-18, 06:09
The word used for us was "exposed" and this is the WR slide

.If the ball is clearly exposed (people over ball??) or has emerged from the ruck, it is
deemed over, so, therefore, the ball can be played. If not, then the principle of ‘Once
a ruck always a ruck’ applies. However, the scrum half cannot be tackled without the
ball

It reminds me of the old "when a seagull can crap on it" which is not seen as a good definition nowadays.. until now perhap



why do they try to complicate it? The ruck is over when the ball is out. The ball is out when all of the ball is past all of the body parts of the players in the ruck.

WTF does 'exposed' mean? Is it exposed if I can see it?




I wonder what they mean by the principle of once a ruck always a ruck.

I suspect they mean that even if one team drops all of their players out of a ruck, the ruck remains once formed.

crossref
13-09-18, 06:09
So now WR offer two ways a ruck can end
1 the ball is clearly exposed
2 the ball has emerged from the ruck

1 seems to be the old seagull test

I think what WR meant to do was to observe that in pro rugby we were starting to see situations where the ball was out, typically at the 9s feet, and refs were treating the situatiin as if it were still in ... Because the ref wanted the ball to get away, rather than having a close quarters scramble for it.
WR are saying stop that.
It didn't need a different definition of when a ruck ends

Balones
13-09-18, 08:09
CTPE - A theme seemed , to me, to help make turnovers more likely, at the breakdown.

Yes. Basically the clubs/coaches at the professional/semi-professional levels of the game have discussed the breakdown area with the RFU and they want more competition in this area because the feeling is/was that the way it was being reffed at the breakdown was showing too much leniency towards the side in possession.

didds
13-09-18, 08:09
I think what WR meant to do was to observe that in pro rugby we were starting to see situations where the ball was out, typically at the 9s feet, and refs were treating the situatiin as if it were still in ... Because the ref wanted the ball to get away, rather than having a close quarters scramble for it.
WR are saying stop that.


If they'd said instead all ruck players must stay on their feet to end this unedifying sight of prone bodies all around the ball creating this unholy mess that would have sorted it out as well. After all, that's only what the laws already say iunnit?

Oh well...

didds

Phil E
13-09-18, 09:09
Just wondering if other refs are being given similar advice as to "focus-points" for this season.

We had a similar talk covering your points 1, 2 and 6, plus some others

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?21017-2018-19-law-messages&p=348537#post348537

CrouchTPEngage
13-09-18, 09:09
why do they try to complicate it? The ruck is over when the ball is out. The ball is out when all of the ball is past all of the body parts of the players in the ruck.

WTF does 'exposed' mean? Is it exposed if I can see it?



I suspect they mean that even if one team drops all of their players out of a ruck, the ruck remains once formed.

Good questions
The video examples given ( and there was some discussion ) highlight the opposite of "once a ruck always a ruck". When all players have collapsed and there is nobody over the ball, then the defenders can come around and pick up the ball. One example even showed both the 9 and a defender both going for the ball at same time - all now totally legal - providing the defender is going for the ball and not the 9, and of course, isnt merely diving over the ball.

didds
13-09-18, 10:09
The video examples given .... When all players have collapsed and there is nobody over the ball, then the defenders can come around and pick up the ball. One example even showed both the 9 and a defender both going for the ball at same time - all now totally legal - providing the defender is going for the ball and not the 9, and of course, isnt merely diving over the ball.

what could POSSIBLY go wrong...

flashpoint city.

players all over the ground, ball lieing between them. Both 9 and oippo go for ball, make contact over the ball. Ruck forms and players pile in to win ruck. Other players legs and heads and arms and bodies in the immediate vicinity.

Yep - that'll work.

didds

Taff
13-09-18, 13:09
... I wonder what they mean by the principle of once a ruck always a ruck.
I assumed it meant a Ruck can't turn into a Maul - which it could previously if a Jackler managed to get his hands onto the ball before the ruck was formed, managed to get it off the ground and the relevant players bound on.


.... I think what WR meant to do was to observe that in pro rugby we were starting to see situations where the ball was out, typically at the 9s feet, and refs were treating the situatiin as if it were still in ...
I suspect you may be right, but that's all they had to do was remind us to say "Ball's out" or "Open Play" as soon as the ruck was over.


... One example even showed both the 9 and a defender both going for the ball at same time - all now totally legal - providing the defender is going for the ball and not the 9, and of course, isn't merely diving over the ball.
I assume the "defender" would be allowed to dive onto the now loose ball to secure it. I assume there's a difference between diving over a loose ball and diving onto a loose ball.

I know there was a law in the pre 2018 book which said no player could dive onto the ball that had just come out of a Ruck, but I don't think I've ever seen it penalised.

crossref
13-09-18, 13:09
It's still there

16. Players must not :
a. Pick the ball up with their legs.
b. Intentionally collapse a ruck or jump on top of it.
c. Intentionally step on another player.
d. Fall over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
e. Kick, or attempt to kick, the ball out of a ruck.

Taff
13-09-18, 13:09
It's still there

16. Players must not :
d. Fall over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.

So the SH still has an advantage over the opponents as they have to get to the ball from an onside position.

My best guess is that teams will now just try making damn sure the ball isn't out till their ready.

Phil E
13-09-18, 14:09
This is about the phase called a Dead Ruck (another new term)

If all the players go to ground in a ruck and start rolling away you have the situation where there are one or two people on the floor and the ball is just sitting there. Now they are saying anyone can just pick it up and play on, providing they do so from an onside position. Rather than everyone just staring at it, or starting another ruck over the top of it.

That's the way we saw it at our meeting....its a continuity thing. I'm not really bothered with the why and wherefores. I have been told to ref it like that so I will.

crossref
13-09-18, 15:09
This is about the phase called a Dead Ruck (another new term)

If all the players go to ground in a ruck and start rolling away you have the situation where there are one or two people on the floor and the ball is just sitting there. Now they are saying anyone can just pick it up and play on, providing they do so from an onside position. Rather than everyone just staring at it, or starting another ruck over the top of it.

That's the way we saw it at our meeting....its a continuity thing. I'm not really bothered with the why and wherefores. I have been to ref it like that so I will.

Expressed this way, it is change to the Law , as it's a variation to 15.18 about conditions for ending a ruck .. a ruck is over if all players in the ruck end up off their feet.

That is new, and really should be introduced as a Law Trial , not as a bit of guidance

Rich_NL
14-09-18, 12:09
It's the question of "is the ruck leaving the ball the same as the ball leaving the ruck?"

I had a related question a few months back: http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20811-Post-ruck-tackle-area

So if everyone's off their feet in the ruck, and the other players are onside, "ruck over!" and play on? Same if one team clears the opposition out past the ruck?

crossref
14-09-18, 13:09
I think the message is clear .. if everyone has gone to ground and the ball is exposed then the ruck is over and we have open play

Dickie E
14-09-18, 14:09
I think the message is clear .. if everyone has gone to ground and the ball is exposed then the ruck is over and we have open play

still wondering what 'exposed' means

Phil E
14-09-18, 14:09
still wondering what 'exposed' means

You of all people should know that!!!

Dickie E
14-09-18, 14:09
You of all people should know that!!!

touche :)

crossref
14-09-18, 14:09
still wondering what 'exposed' means

I read the slides and watched the video it means if a seagull could poo on it

Phil E
14-09-18, 16:09
I read the slides and watched the video it means if a seagull could poo on it

In this context exposed means the ball has no one over it, or the ball has left the ruck confines.

Taff
14-09-18, 17:09
still wondering what 'exposed' means

I read the slides and watched the video it means if a seagull could poo on it

In this context exposed means the ball has no one over it, or the ball has left the ruck confines.

What I THINK it means is that we are meant to use the Seagull Test instead of the Rubber Band Test. :chin:

Eg if the ball is on the ground and between the legs of a player pushing in the ruck, it may pass the Seagull Test of ruck over but fail the Rubber Band Test.

crossref
14-09-18, 17:09
If everyone is one the floor the rubber band test can't be used .. nothing to put the band round ..

Dickie E
15-09-18, 03:09
I read the slides and watched the video it means if a seagull could poo on it

so is the concept of 'use it' now over? If a ref is inclined to call 'use it' it probably means the ball is exposed and open slather

Phil E
15-09-18, 10:09
What I THINK it means is that we are meant to use the Seagull Test instead of the Rubber Band Test. :chin:

Eg if the ball is on the ground and between the legs of a player pushing in the ruck, it may pass the Seagull Test of ruck over but fail the Rubber Band Test.

In all the video examples there is no one on their feet, I believe this is the key. The ball is effectively in the open begging to be picked up.

Taff
15-09-18, 10:09
In all the video examples there is no one on their feet, I believe this is the key. The ball is effectively in the open begging to be picked up.
OK. So we are expected to carry on as normal (with "Use It") if players are on their feet and the ball is at the back of the ruck? :chin:

Phil E
15-09-18, 10:09
OK. So we are expected to carry on as normal (with "Use It") if players are on their feet and the ball is at the back of the ruck? :chin:

Yes, that’s what we were told.

Dickie E
15-09-18, 14:09
OK. So we are expected to carry on as normal (with "Use It") if players are on their feet and the ball is at the back of the ruck? :chin:

Noting that 'on their feet' means that if they lifted their arms, they wouldn't fall over forwards

Zebra1922
16-09-18, 17:09
If we reach a scenario where the ball is exposed and the ruck is now over, are we in effect back in open play and therefore there are no offside lines? I.e. opposition players can come round the area that was the ruck and play the ball from any direction?

didds
16-09-18, 17:09
So if all these players are off their feet "at the ruck" - why aren;t they pinged for being off their feet?

confused...

crossref
16-09-18, 20:09
If we reach a scenario where the ball is exposed and the ruck is now over, are we in effect back in open play and therefore there are no offside lines? I.e. opposition players can come round the area that was the ruck and play the ball from any direction?

not exactly - even though the ruck is over, players who were never onside from the ruck - loiterers - can't benefit from loitering

but an onside player can certainly come in from any angle to pick up the ball

Camquin
16-09-18, 22:09
Because if is not a penalty offence to be off your feet per se.
Players must endeavour to stay on their feet and must not deliberately collapse.
However, once off their feet they must not interfere with play and must attempt to roll away.

Pinky
18-09-18, 10:09
If we reach a scenario where the ball is exposed and the ruck is now over, are we in effect back in open play and therefore there are no offside lines? I.e. opposition players can come round the area that was the ruck and play the ball from any direction?

I think the intention is that you can only play the ball from behind it. I think this is what the dead ruck is about - it means there is still an offside line, essentially through the ball as there is no hindmost foot, but not no offside line like open play.

didds
18-09-18, 10:09
... but that woldn;'t prevent a player from an onside position attempting to come through and play the ball.

(I may have misunderstood :-)

didds

CrouchTPEngage
18-09-18, 14:09
... but that woldn;'t prevent a player from an onside position attempting to come through and play the ball.

(I may have misunderstood :-)

didds

Correct. And that's the point. Any defender can now come through and pick up the ball which previously may have been regarded as "in the once-a-ruck" as it is in front of the hindmost foot of what was a ruck. So the 9 must now not hang about.
The idea is to increase the jeopardy and the chance of a turnover.

thepercy
18-09-18, 15:09
Correct. And that's the point. Any defender can now come through and pick up the ball which previously may have been regarded as "in the once-a-ruck" as it is in front of the hindmost foot of what was a ruck. So the 9 must now not hang about.
The idea is to increase the jeopardy and the chance of a turnover.

Watching professional rugby recently I am seeing a lot more teams protecting their ball in the ruck.

thepercy
18-09-18, 15:09
New guidance from USA Rugby refs dept this season:

If the ruck is clearly won, and the SH uses hands to roll the ball into a better position, then the ball is considered to be out of the ruck.

CrouchTPEngage
18-09-18, 15:09
New guidance from USA Rugby refs dept this season:

If the ruck is clearly won, and the SH uses hands to roll the ball into a better position, then the ball is considered to be out of the ruck.

Wow ! Not heard that one at my society meetings. Interesting. My view was ball is out when its "lifted" or the whole of the ball has gone behind the whole of the hindmost foot. Now , I am going to have to add this new thing about dead-rucks and exposed balls.
I'll probably just stick to those 3 for now.

ChrisR
18-09-18, 23:09
New guidance from USA Rugby refs dept this season:

If the ruck is clearly won, and the SH uses hands to roll the ball into a better position, then the ball is considered to be out of the ruck.

That's crap. They're making it up.

Camquin
18-09-18, 23:09
Well the scrum half is not actually allowed to handle the ball while it is still in the ruck.

thepercy
19-09-18, 02:09
Right, so we give the SH license to dig, but not in a clearly won ruck because that is too far. I'd rather they just said to penalize the roll back with three hand rather than creating a new way that the ball can be out of a ruck

crossref
19-09-18, 06:09
But this isn't new, it's why on the TV we see SH reposition the ball with their feet.