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CrouchTPEngage
20-10-18, 15:10
Just watching Wasps v Bath and ,as Bath attempt to clear their lines, Tom Cruse makes a good charge down but takes the full force of the ball kicked directly at his head. He looks knocked out. Ref blows. He subsequently passes his HIA. My question is : how do we restart ?
The law says give a scrum to the team moving forward. Well is that Wasps ; because the ball rebounded off a Wasps head and was travelling towards the Bath try line?
What do we think?

Dickie E
20-10-18, 16:10
Interesting scenario. I'd give it to attacking team.

The team that was last moving forward or, if neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.

Christy
20-10-18, 19:10
If wasps have deliberately tried to play the ball , which is what im getting from post .
And subsequently has knocked him self out .
By the ball hitting his head by an attempted charge down .
I would restart scrum to wasps ,,as they team moving foreward ..

If however , which i dont think is what happened ,,by how im reading posts .
The wasps player has simply had ball kicked at his head .
If he has made no attempt to play ball .
After stoppage for injury ,,i would award scrum to team team who were then moving forward .
Being the team of the kicker ..

Dickie E
21-10-18, 05:10
If wasps have deliberately tried to play the ball , which is what im getting from post .
And subsequently has knocked him self out .
By the ball hitting his head by an attempted charge down .
I would restart scrum to wasps ,,as they team moving foreward ..

If however , which i dont think is what happened ,,by how im reading posts .
The wasps player has simply had ball kicked at his head .
If he has made no attempt to play ball .
After stoppage for injury ,,i would award scrum to team team who were then moving forward .
Being the team of the kicker ..

Now makes me wonder what 'moving forward' actually means. Is it the direction most of the players are running or is it the direction that the ball is moving?

crossref
21-10-18, 08:10
Now makes me wonder what 'moving forward' actually means. Is it the direction most of the players are running or is it the direction that the ball is moving?

Normally they are the same, of course , but when they are different i think it must be the direction the ball is moving

L'irlandais
21-10-18, 08:10
https://youtu.be/iiz-SlC2TPs
The charge down wasn’t in the highlights reel. However I have a question concerning Wasps second try. At 41:47 on the match clock (1 minute 51 seconds into this clip) Wasps are attacking the Bath line. Gold 9 passes the ball back in field to another pod who set up a ruck. As Gold9 at the back of the ruck looks for the ball, Gold 1 comes in from the side, in front of the scrum half, picks the ball and passes it back to Gold 9 who peels off the back of the ruck to score. Is the ball considered out, and back to open play?

Christy
21-10-18, 09:10
https://youtu.be/iiz-SlC2TPs
The charge down wasn’t in the highlights reel. However I have a question concerning Wasps second try. At 41:47 on the match clock (1 minute 51 seconds into this clip) Wasps are attacking the Bath line. Gold 9 passes the ball back in field to another pod who set up a ruck. As Gold9 at the back of the ruck looks for the ball, Gold 1 comes in from the side, in front of the scrum half, picks the ball and passes it back to Gold 9 who peels off the back of the ruck to score. Is the ball considered out, and back to open play?


For me , ball was out at side of ruck ,,play on

CrouchTPEngage
23-10-18, 16:10
Thanks for replies. Makes interesting reading. The OP was about a specific incident where the Wasps player was indeed attempting to make a charge-down, and indeed, did make one, albeit getting knocked out in the process. So if this happens then it is scrum down to Wasps as the charge-down knocked the ball forward , in favour of Wasps.
That actually makes some sense. Thanks

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 07:10
Now makes me wonder what 'moving forward' actually means. Is it the direction most of the players are running or is it the direction that the ball is moving?

Towards the opposition goal line. I don't see anything else being logical.

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 08:10
Normally they are the same, of course , but when they are different i think it must be the direction the ball is moving

So, after a line out that blue win the backs rundtowards Red's goal line and Blue 9 passes the ball 5mtrs towards his own goal line and "something" happens. You are going to say that red are moving toward Blue's goal line and Blue are moving backwards, just because the ball is going that way )albeit temporarily?

THe law says The team that was last moving forward or...


and not the directiion the ball the ball that was last moving forward towards or...

crossref
24-10-18, 08:10
Marc, I am not sure, help me picture your scenario better :

In the scenario , when you stop play
In what direction are the majority of Blue team moving?
In what direction are the majority of the Red team moving ?

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 08:10
For me , ball was out at side of ruck ,,play on

Is he not standing at the side of the ruck BEFORE the ball comes out and therefore offside?

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 08:10
Marc, I am not sure, help me picture your scenario better :

In the scenario , when you stop play
In what direction are the majority of Blue team moving?
In what direction are the majority of the Red team moving ?

I think the scenario post a line out is pretty obvious sorry. Why does the law refer to the direction of the "TEAM" and not the "BALL"?

Obviously, at any time some players will be moving towards the opposition line others toward their own and some parallel to the goal line. A little common sense is required.

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 08:10
Actualy the law is:



20.4 THE TEAM THROWING THE BALL INTO THE SCRUM

(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by
Law , the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither
team was moving forward , the attacking team throws in the ball.

Whilst 2018 attempts to clarify thus

Stoppage due to injury.

In the scrum zone at the point where the ball was last played.

The team last in possession.

So, in the scenario, who was in moving forward / possession before the player was injured? I suggest it was not the team who's player was injured.

This avoids any debatie about "deliberate" or "accidental" playing the ball.


KISS!

crossref
24-10-18, 08:10
I am confused, is your scenario an injury, or is it some other stoppage

Also I am not clear which direction each team is moving in .. help me out

Marc Wakeham
24-10-18, 08:10
We are talking about the Wasps game in the thread.

I'm out of this discussion, sorry. I really don't know why you do this.

Rich_NL
24-10-18, 09:10
To be fair, you'd just brought up a line out and were discussing that.

I think the new law is less clear: since attempting to bring the ball under control counts as possession, does a charge-down count as attempting to bring the ball under control? I'd say not, so scrum to the kicking team.

didds
24-10-18, 09:10
If only the reality had been far simpler, like the ball ending up in goal off the wasps player's head, where a bath player picked it up but didn't dot down and tried to run it out of in goal but was tackled but offloaded to a team mate who kicked it into another wasps player in goal who knocked on whilst having his arnm knocked by a bath bench player warming up there whilst wearing leggings.

didds

crossref
24-10-18, 09:10
We are talking about the Wasps game in the thread.

I'm out of this discussion, sorry. I really don't know why you do this.

In post 10 you asked me specific ally about a new , lineout scenario. I am trying to answer your question !

crossref
24-10-18, 10:10
Actualy the law is:



20.4 THE TEAM THROWING THE BALL INTO THE SCRUM

(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by
Law , the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither
team was moving forward , the attacking team throws in the ball.

Whilst 2018 attempts to clarify thus

Stoppage due to injury.

In the scrum zone at the point where the ball was last played.

The team last in possession.



So that is interesting though .

The 2018 Law Book has
After injury : Team last in possession
After any other stoppage : Team going forward

In 2017 there was no special law for injury , it came under the heading of any other stoppage, and it was team moving forward

So another change to go on my table !

who would have thought we would still be finding differences.

crossref
24-10-18, 10:10
So the answer to the Original Post , the Wasps incident , which was an injury , the answer is
2017 : the team going forward (Wasps I think , but arguable)
2018 : the team last in possession (clearly Bath)

What did the ref give ?

collybs
24-10-18, 11:10
By the time the ref had blown play had developed and one team (Bath IIRC) was in possession when he blew.

crossref
24-10-18, 11:10
By the time the ref had blown play had developed and one team (Bath IIRC) was in possession when he blew.

And no doubt they were also going forward as well

crossref
24-10-18, 11:10
Ah no , I correct myself

It was the same in 2017 , but in an odd place

6.A.9 THE REFEREE AND INJURY
If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no
infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team
last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team
throws in the ball.

So team in possession

CrouchTPEngage
24-10-18, 11:10
Ah no , I correct myself

It was the same in 2017 , but in an odd place

6.A.9 THE REFEREE AND INJURY
If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no
infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team
last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team
throws in the ball.

So team in possession

Thanks ! So , given that "having a ball kicked at your head" does not constitute "in possession" then, in my example, the scrum goes to the team who just kicked it from hand.
I can go with that.

Just contrasts with the scrum after an unplayable ruck : This goes to the team moving forward ( or attacking team if none going forward ).