PDA

View Full Version : [Scrum] Where can the non-throwing SH go after ball thrown-in ?



CrouchTPEngage
21-11-18, 11:11
Incident from last weekend.
Blue v Red and it is a Blue scrum.
Red SH started in usual place, next to scrum and Blue SH. After the ball goes in, Red SH then moves to back, behind his Number-8's hindmost foot.
Cue Blue SH pointing at him and appealing to me. He appealed something like "Sir, he cannot come round the open-side". In fact, he stayed behind his number 8's feet, so I think he was just firing a warning at the Red-SH.
Did this law get changed in 2018 ?

From the lawbook:
30 . Once play in the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession:

Takes up a position with both feet behind the ball and close to the scrum or
Permanently retires to a point on the offside line either at that team’s hindmost foot, or
Permanently retires at least five metres behind the hindmost foot.


So that implies the Red SH can NOT run round to the other side of his scrum so long as he keeps both feet behind the ball - right ?

Taff
21-11-18, 12:11
The opposing SH can't go round the other side of the scrum and follow the ball.

If he wants to move back (ie he isn't following the ball through the scrum) then his new offside line is the hindmost foot - and than runs the whole width of the pitch.

That's how I understand it anyway. :biggrin:

crossref
21-11-18, 12:11
Once the Red SH retires to back foot , he can move sideways, open or blind, but can't come forward again , as his offside line is now the back foot

Blue SH needs a warning for shouting at you , and if it's not the first time a PK as well .

Pinky
21-11-18, 17:11
CTPE, the law bit about permanently retiring 5m is totally unnecessary as the SH will have been onside for the last 5m of that retiral.

You are right that the SH has to go back to the hind foot if he does not remain close to the scrum on the putting in side. I saw a couple of SH being told that by the refs in the internationals at the weekend.

Agree with CR that you should have corked the blue SH

chbg
21-11-18, 21:11
CTPE, the law bit about permanently retiring 5m is totally unnecessary as the SH will have been onside for the last 5m of that retiral.

But once he is back 5m he cannot come forward again. Why that is necessary I do not know - probably a hangover from past Laws. Prime candidate for simplification!

Pinky
22-11-18, 13:11
But once he is back 5m he cannot come forward again. Why that is necessary I do not know - probably a hangover from past Laws. Prime candidate for simplification!

But as long as he goes back only 4.9m he can come forward again!

Nigib
22-11-18, 14:11
But as long as he goes back only 4.9m he can come forward again!

He can't go back 4.9m and be legal - law says either ON the offside line at hindmost foot, or back 5m - stops them shuttling to and fro I guess.

didds
22-11-18, 14:11
oniy we know thats not right either... otherwise the s/h couldn't pop around the other side ON the line of the back foot to defend )as is sometimes seen) because they would have to have progressed PAST the back foot to get there.

Elpablo73
22-11-18, 17:11
We have all seen the SH going to the other side of the scrum; but if you are going to apply what would seem to be the intent of the law, shouldn't we be managing the SH to stay on the correct side and penalising them if they don't (obviously applying materiality and the level of the game being played when making a decision)?

Pinky
22-11-18, 18:11
We have all seen the SH going to the other side of the scrum; but if you are going to apply what would seem to be the intent of the law, shouldn't we be managing the SH to stay on the correct side and penalising them if they don't (obviously applying materiality and the level of the game being played when making a decision)?

But they are allowed to go to the other side of the scrum as long as they remain behind the back foot. If there is a law saying the offside line is the back foot, then there is no need for a law saying the offside line is 5m behind the back foot.

chbg
22-11-18, 18:11
He can't go back 4.9m and be legal - law says either ON the offside line at hindmost foot, or back 5m - stops them shuttling to and fro I guess.

Who HAS to stay ON the offside line? Behind the line is fine. So go back 4.9m and you can come forward again. Go back to 5m+ and you stay at least 5m back.

That's the difference.

I do agree that it is outdated.

Elpablo73
23-11-18, 18:11
Pinky, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I will attempt to explain the interpretation give to me, by more learned people than I, of what the law is trying to say.

The diagram below is one we have all seen many times, and shows 3 offside lines for the blue players. I'm going assume we are all reasonable happy with the 2 outer offside lines relating to blue.

Now for the pesky middle offside line, this line is slightly different to the other two as it marks a line that the furthest the scrum half can go towards their own try line and still be part of the scrum. Once the scrum half has crossed this line they are no longer part of the scrum and so are offside until they cross the uppermost blue offside line.

Further to this, if the scrum half does decide to stay on this offside line they must stay near the scrum, and must remain on the same side (moving to the other side is deemed as overstepping the offside line and is penalisable (this is clearer in the pre-simplified version of the law book).

3826

crossref
23-11-18, 22:11
Pablo I don't think this is right.

Rich_NL
23-11-18, 23:11
I agree with ElPablo. The scrum half can't hover 2m behind the back foot (or 4.9m) - he's left the scrum and needs to retire.

They sometimes do this when they're expecting the ball to be run off the back row, but not sure which side it's coming. You effectively have a loose, unbound defender floating around in front of the defensive line.

crossref
24-11-18, 07:11
The point is that when he gets to the back foot he can then move latererally across the pitch, keeping to that offside line

I don't see any reason why he couldn't stand 1m behind that line if he wanted to (of course he won't want to )

Rich_NL
24-11-18, 09:11
Because that is the law - per law 19.30, he either retires to a point *on* the offside line at the hind foot, or *at least 5m* behind it.

crossref
24-11-18, 10:11
Because that is the law - per law 19.30, he either retires to a point *on* the offside line at the hind foot, or *at least 5m* behind it.

oh yes

Pinky
26-11-18, 12:11
Pinky, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I will attempt to explain the interpretation give to me, by more learned people than I, of what the law is trying to say.

The diagram below is one we have all seen many times, and shows 3 offside lines for the blue players. I'm going assume we are all reasonable happy with the 2 outer offside lines relating to blue.

Now for the pesky middle offside line, this line is slightly different to the other two as it marks a line that the furthest the scrum half can go towards their own try line and still be part of the scrum. Once the scrum half has crossed this line they are no longer part of the scrum and so are offside until they cross the uppermost blue offside line.

Further to this, if the scrum half does decide to stay on this offside line they must stay near the scrum, and must remain on the same side (moving to the other side is deemed as overstepping the offside line and is penalisable (this is clearer in the pre-simplified version of the law book).

3826

Elpablo, I do not agree with you that the "middle" offside line is as you describe it an on-side line. In the autumn international there have been a number of occasions where SH have left the side of the scrum and been told by the ref to be behind the back foot. I remain of the view that the 5m line only applies when the SH does not line up at the scrum at all.

Elpablo73
26-11-18, 13:11
Pinky, I think we will have to agree to disagree about this; I'm of a firm belief one way and you have a different one. I don't see me getting you to change your interpretation, and that's fine. These are the nuances that make our game special.

ChuckieB
26-11-18, 23:11
While the ball is still in the scrum, both scrum halves effectively follow the ball through the scrum up to a point.

If it is won with the put in the opposing scrum half cannot then come round and advance the other side. If it is won against the head ( as if!) the scrum half with the put in cannot then himself go round and advance the other side.

surely it's as straight forward as that?

which s/h in their right mind would give up 5 metres? For me it's a lateral line across the pitch and is just there to ensure the s/h on the side losing the strike cannot close down on the other side.

crossref
27-11-18, 06:11
which s/h in their right mind would give up 5 metres? For me it's a lateral line across the pitch and is just there to ensure the s/h on the side losing the strike cannot close down on the other side.

I see it quite frequently !

I assume the reasoning is that if you retire to the back foot you can now defend both blind and open side

Sometimes I will see the SH moving laterally on his offside line, ie away from the scrum to cover the opposing 10 (not so common )

ChuckieB
27-11-18, 08:11
I see it quite frequently !

I assume the reasoning is that if you retire to the back foot you can now defend both blind and open side

Sometimes I will see the SH moving laterally on his offside line, ie away from the scrum to cover the opposing 10 (not so common )

It first really came to my attention when I saw TJ perenara, I think it was, drifting away in a super rugby game and the ref directing him in no uncertain terms to get behind the back foot once he had drifted that couple of metres sideways.

Pinky
27-11-18, 09:11
Pinky, I think we will have to agree to disagree about this; I'm of a firm belief one way and you have a different one. I don't see me getting you to change your interpretation, and that's fine. These are the nuances that make our game special.

Elpablo, if you look at the clips on the WR site, there is one where the Italian 9 drifts to the other side, but stays behind the back foot. However his 10 comes offside 5m back and it is there where the penalty is awarded.

(Don't look at the Scotland Japan scrum video earlier, I don't know what Greg Laidlaw thought he was doing!)

Elpablo73
03-12-18, 17:12
Pinky, I got to discuss this with a national panel referee coach and he said:

"World rugby have been known to use videos to illustate points of law that sometimes show other laws not being refereed as they are written, and this is one of them. At the international level keeping the game flowing is the primary aim of the referees and so will manage the players & teams to get this. Rugby on TV and rugby we officiate are effectively 2 different games."