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View Full Version : Conversion - Yes or No?



Blindpugh
19-12-18, 14:12
I am posting this here as it could happen in senior as well as junior rugby i.e. with club TJ's.

Club referee of Under 15 league match with club TJ's.

Blue score try with last play. Score 14 - 14 with conversion from 5 metre line on 22 to win match. Referee stands next to kicker and at point when TJ's need to make decision. One puts their flag up whilst the other keeps his flag down!:wtf::wtf:

From his location referee cannot tell if conversion went over bar or not and consults with TJ's who stick by their decisions. :chin:

After much consultation with coaches involved! Referee decides to disallow try and has decided to phone a friend to see if he is right or wrong as complaint has been received.

Oh and a Merry Christmas and Happy and healthy New Year to you all.

crossref
19-12-18, 15:12
He just has to make his own best judgement .. did he think it went over , or not

Flish
19-12-18, 15:12
He just has to make his own best judgement .. did he think it went over , or not

Yup, this, tough as that may be, I'm mostly envious he had enough TJ's to cause a conflict!

Taff
19-12-18, 15:12
... Referee stands next to kicker and at point when TJ's need to make decision. One puts their flag up whilst the other keeps his flag down! From his location referee cannot tell if conversion went over bar or not and consults with TJ's who stick by their decisions. :chin: After much consultation with coaches involved! Referee decides to disallow try and has decided to phone a friend to see if he is right or wrong as complaint has been received.
I don't see how the Referee can "disallow the try" having already given it.

As Crossref says, I reckon it's on the Ref to decide one way or the other if the conversion was good. It's a tough one, but that's what he's paid for. Oh hang about ... :biggrin:

didds
19-12-18, 15:12
Blue score try with last play..... [conversion] One puts their flag up whilst the other keeps his flag down!:wtf::wtf:

From his location referee cannot tell if conversion went over bar or not and consults with TJ's who stick by their decisions. :chin:

After much consultation with coaches involved! Referee decides to disallow try ...



why disallow the try?

didds

Flish
19-12-18, 16:12
I think the disallow bit was said in jest, I hope!

Blindpugh
19-12-18, 16:12
I don't see how the Referee can "disallow the try" having already given it.

As Crossref says, I reckon it's on the Ref to decide one way or the other if the conversion was good. It's a tough one, but that's what he's paid for. Oh hang about ... :biggrin:

Apologies I didn't check my typing :noyc: I confirm he allowed try which made it 14 all.

So if confronted with this situation and you couldn't tell if it had gone over or not what would you have done?

didds
19-12-18, 17:12
this must be such a reasonably common occurrence ie its not unlikely to happen to a ref, I would imagine there is an agreed protocol in place surely?

didds

crossref
19-12-18, 17:12
Apologies I didn't check my typing :noyc: I confirm he allowed try which made it 14 all.

So if confronted with this situation and you couldn't tell if it had gone over or not what would you have done?

Made a decision on balance of probabilities

Imagine there had been a video and you were just about to see it, and had to bet 10 on what it was going to reveal, what would you bet ?

That's the answer

Lesson ... For every conversion stand close and focus ... You never know when it will be important

Marc Wakeham
19-12-18, 17:12
I assume Kicker's AR said YES and the No kicking side's AR said NO.

Tricky one .


For the future, I'd say check your positioning, you should have a pretty good idea. Folllow the ball in and you should be pretty sure yourself. Not always I accept.



Where was the doubt? Pulled wide of the near upright or pushed past the far one? Or was it the crossbar clearence? Which AR would have had the better view of the "contentious" area?


Just re-read the OP the crossbar. OK. Go with the closest AR and sell it positively.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
19-12-18, 17:12
I was running touch at a tournament years ago when my lad played. Me and other TJ (coach of other team) watched (our) PK or conversion sail between posts (albeit higher than height of posts). I said "yes" as per protocol. He said nothing but I had by this time put up my flag. Referee called us on. We were both adamant the kick was good/bad and held our respective positions. Referee ruled it missed "because we could not agree" which nearly had me suggest the opposite should equally apply.

Anyway we trudged back to our respective lines him thinking "phew that was fortunate" and me thinking "cheating twat" :)

crossref
19-12-18, 17:12
Never choose a touch judge
Never default to no (why not yes)

Just say, confidently "it was really close but I was watching carefully and I have to say I thought it was (whatever you thought)

That's the ONLY thing that no one can disagree with in principle .

They may disagree with your judgment .. but they will agree that it is correct for you to make a judgement .. that is the point of having you

Taff
19-12-18, 21:12
.... So if confronted with this situation and you couldn't tell if it had gone over or not what would you have done?
I think you would have to work on the assumption what would I have said if there were no TJs?


... Just say, confidently "it was really close but I was watching carefully and I have to say I thought it was (whatever you thought). That's the ONLY thing that no one can disagree with in principle.
Quite. And there's a way to speak to the TJ without alienating him and creating an enemy for life. :biggrin:

I had something similar with a TJ when a PK was kicked to the corner. The TJ said it had been kicked through in-goal but I didn't. With my most diplomatic voice I just said "That was close, but from where I was standing it looked as if it was just this side of the flag". As long as you don't embarrass him, they'll probably be OK with your decision.

crossref
19-12-18, 21:12
I think you would have to work on the assumption what would I have said if there were no TJs?


. .

And let's face it, the answer is likely to be "If I hadn't got any TIs , I would have been paying more attention"

:)

Dickie E
19-12-18, 22:12
would it be completely out of order to invite the kicker to take it again?

Dickie E
19-12-18, 22:12
From his location referee cannot tell if conversion went over bar or not and consults with TJ's who stick by their decisions. :chin:

After much consultation with coaches involved! Referee decides to disallow try and has decided to phone a friend to see if he is right or wrong as complaint has been received.



I remember an old baseball umpire telling me that the more line ball a decision is, the more confidently you have to be seen to be making it.

OB..
20-12-18, 10:12
If it is a question of the ball being above post height, I would be more likely to trust the TJ nearest the relevant post. He has a better view. (A good TJ would have moved to check more easily.)

TheBFG
20-12-18, 11:12
U15's and the score is 14-14, draw sounds like a good result! Mines an OJ and lemonade please :wink:

as a ref, (unless i have appointed AR's). If we have a one up one down situation, then i go with what I've seen.

crossref
20-12-18, 11:12
If it is a question of the ball being above post height, I would be more likely to trust the TJ nearest the relevant post. He has a better view. (A good TJ would have moved to check more easily.)

With ARs possibly do that
With TJ when this happens it is ALWAYS the TJ from the kicking team with his flag up, and the one from the other team with his flag down.

My advice is to beam them up immediately..
Pay no attention to where they were standing

OB..
20-12-18, 16:12
With ARs possibly do that
With TJ when this happens it is ALWAYS the TJ from the kicking team with his flag up, and the one from the other team with his flag down.

My advice is to beam them up immediately..
Pay no attention to where they were standingOverly cynical!

crossref
20-12-18, 17:12
No I don't think they cheat.
But it's similar to how both sets of support ers watch the same game and both feel the referee decisions went against them

Blindpugh
20-12-18, 19:12
would it be completely out of order to invite the kicker to take it again?

Hi Dickie,

I did this once in my second season of refereeing and raised it at Society meeting where I was informed by senior referees that all though my decision was logical and equitable it was incorrect.

I was asked on Friday night to go on exchange to referee match between two rival public schools. There was the usual crowd of supporting parents until 15 minutes before end of game when suddenly all the other games finished and players and supporters came across to lend their support to their respective 1st XVs.

Home school scored with final play and had conversion to win. I stood next to kicker and followed kick in and from my view it appeared to go over the top of the upright. I looked at TJs (who were the respective rugby coaches) and home TJ put flag up and quickly ran away and away TJ kept his flag down. So I thought :wtf: do I do now?!

After consulting both TJs who were obviously adamant they were correct I thought about what I had learnt on my NFC course i.e. Safety, Equity, Law and decided right we will take the conversion again and this time it went straight down the middle!

Senior referees advised that I should view the upright as extending up to the sky and majority of times it would have bounced back in field or outside post so I should have disallowed conversion and gone with the draw.:chin:

Marc Wakeham
20-12-18, 22:12
If you felt it was directly over the the upright then your view should, in my opinion, have been that the kick was not successful. Your senior guys are right, the posts extend as far as the eye can see.

Pinky
21-12-18, 17:12
I generally try and say to the TJs to agree with each other before they flag, and if they can't agree, tell me and I'll decide. As for TJ decision re touch and tig, I generally accept them unless I think they are C&O wrong. I may have a word to make sure I know what they have seen, eg which side of the corner flag, etc

Blackberry
21-12-18, 19:12
When I see a conversion kick is going close to the posts I stick my arm out towards the ball and stare closely down it towards the ball, looking intently at the flight of the ball. It doesn't always help me make my decision, but it sure helps me sell it.

Zebra1922
22-12-18, 19:12
I nearly had a situation similar to this recently with ARs. Conversion taken, I could clearly see it went over, then could see the ARs conferring and it seemed and awful long time before a decision was made. I'm frantically thinking "flags up, flags up", trying to give a subtle thumbs up signal etc. Luckily aftger what seemed like an eternity flags went up and all was well.

Would have been interesting if they'd waved it off. I would have overruled but I can imagine the arguments that would have caused, even though in some cases a referee behind the kick will have a clearer view (I've TJ'd and AR'd, and it's surprising how difficult it is to see sometimes if the ball goes very near a post whether it was inside or outside).