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crossref
04-02-19, 21:02
Same as usual .. quick answer , A or B

I will come back later and suggest an answer and then you can tell me how it was different in the old days .. :)

Here we go ..

Blue 11 carries the ball into his own in goal and attempts to run it back

Still inside the in goal he is tackled by Red 7 and both players hit the deck heavily .

The ball spills loose, in the direction of the goal line, and Red 7 , still on the floor, rolls over, reaches out and grounds the ball.

A Try
B PK to Blue

Taff
04-02-19, 21:02
A. Try.

Flish
04-02-19, 22:02
Try, in that no obvious reason not too.

Rich_NL
04-02-19, 22:02
A. But I feel far more certain of it than my knowledge of the laws can justify, so I suspect a trick.

Not Kurt Weaver
05-02-19, 00:02
I will come back later and suggest an answer and then you can tell me how it was different in the old days .. :)



Well played, always know ur audience

A, unless Red 7 is in touch or touch in goal.

SimonSmith
05-02-19, 00:02
The "tackle" happens in-goal, so doesn't meet the criteria of a tackle in law.
Does that leave Red as a player on the ground in open play?

I'd award the try, I think, because I'm not sure that this is covered in law, and so I'm betting with the attacking team.

tewdric
05-02-19, 06:02
Blue seems to have lost the ball forward (towards the goal line from behind the goal line) so initial sanction is scrum 5 red although, assuming advantage applies in-goal I cant see a reason not to give the try.

Dickie E
05-02-19, 06:02
Law 13 might provide the fly for this ointment:
A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball.
Not play the ball.
Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty.


although if a player on the ground in TiG can reach out to score, surely a player in-goal can too.

didds
05-02-19, 09:02
the OP doesnt specifically say so but potentially blue grounded the ball when brought to ground prior to losing the ball towards red's DBL ? so 5m scrum.

Otherwise try.

didds

Flish
05-02-19, 10:02
the OP doesnt specifically say so but potentially blue grounded the ball when brought to ground prior to lofing the ball towards red's DBL ? so %m scrum.

Otherwise try.

didds


Considered the grounding (thinking Wasps vs Saints) but not clear, and correct about the knock on but wasn't an option. If nothing else try as I can't think of a reason to award a penalty. Closest I can get is playing the ball on the ground, but it is red preventing
blue from playing it (who is also not on feet?)?

Still sounds like a try

crossref
05-02-19, 10:02
For clarity . The ball wasn't grounded in the tackle , it was knocked loose / lost forward from the ball carrier

didds
05-02-19, 10:02
For clarity . The ball wasn't grounded in the tackle , it was knocked loose / lost forward from the ball carrier

Then it's try.

didds

Jz558
05-02-19, 11:02
I would award the try because I believe that is what would be expected and I suspect I can sell the decision more easily than explaining that as Red 7 was on the ground he was out of the game and not entitled to play the ball until he regained his feet. That said, if that scenario was replayed in the field of play and 7 gathered the ball in similar circumstances I would penalise him. Double standards I appreciate. In an attempt at justification - without the absolute backing of the laws though in one scenario I am rewarding positive play whilst in the other I am de-incentivising negative play.

didds
05-02-19, 11:02
I missed the "rolls over" bit.

Hmmm.

nah, award the try. works for me.

didds

Jz558
05-02-19, 11:02
Whilst not wanting to sidetrack too much, a more interesting scenario would be if the defender in this scenario rolled over and touched down ahead of the attacker. Would you give the 5m scrum to Red, a penalty to Blue or a penalty try on the basis that the nearest player to the Blue defender was Red 7 who only needed to regain his feet to score the try?

crossref
05-02-19, 11:02
Bingo ...if you are going to allow one of the players to roll along the ground and touch the ball down , then both of them must be allowed to do it....

Either they both can, or neither .. so now see Law 13

Taff
05-02-19, 11:02
... although if a player on the ground in TiG can reach out to score, surely a player in-goal can too.
Genuine question, but can a player on the ground in TiG reach out to score?

I know a player on his feet but over TiG or the DBL can score by dabbing the ball down, but off his feet? :chin:

Jz558
05-02-19, 11:02
I guess that if the dynamics of the situation were such that I could persuade myself that either player touching down was part of the same fluid movement as the tackle, even though they technically hadn't regained their feet before playing the ball I'd be satisfied with that. In the case where both were scrabbling round to find the ball which had been lost in the tackle and then crawling or rolling towards it before touching down I would be likely to use Law 13 to justify a sanction against either player.

crossref
05-02-19, 12:02
In this scenario, oddly enough :) , he had to roll over to reach the ball .. so PK ?

Rich_NL
05-02-19, 12:02
Since we're looking at the laws in detail, 7.2.c - knock-on advantage over, go back for red scrum 5?

crossref
05-02-19, 12:02
Since we're looking at the laws in detail, 7.2.c - knock-on advantage over, go back for red scrum 5?

Good point

crossref
05-02-19, 14:02
So here is what I think is the answer.

Much as I would like to award the try, I cannot get round Law 13.3

13.3 A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball.
Not play the ball.
Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.

If Red is allowed to roll over and play the ball, then so is Blue and this seems to be exactly what 13.3 specificly forbids.

But as Rich NL points out the correct answer is actually neither A nor B (oops)

The correct answer, I believe, is

The ball is lost forward from Blue, so playing advantage to Red

Red commits an offence (playing ball on ground )

So no advantage gained, back to the knock on

Sanction for Blue KO in the in goal : 5m scrum to Red

Anyone seriously disagree ?

Jz558
05-02-19, 16:02
By the absolute wording of the law book that would be the correct decision. That said I still think I would want to see the dynamics of who stopped moving after the tackle, when and how. Wet pitch, dry pitch, natural roll, artificial roll. I would want to award the try and would be looking for reasons to do so rather than for excuses to chalk it off

crossref
05-02-19, 16:02
By the absolute wording of the law book that would be the correct decision. That said I still think I would want to see the dynamics of who stopped moving after the tackle, when and how. Wet pitch, dry pitch, natural roll, artificial roll. I would want to award the try and would be looking for reasons to do so rather than for excuses to chalk it off

I think that sounds sensible , but I think you have to extend the same latitude to both players .. which means you may well have both of them on the floor scrabbling for the ball .. so we end up back at 13.3 again ..

Jz558
05-02-19, 16:02
I wouldn't disagree

crossref
06-02-19, 07:02
I think that, as time goes on and we work through some scenarios , we see that 13.3 has a definite impact on the game

menace
06-02-19, 10:02
So here is what I think is the answer.

Much as I would like to award the try, I cannot get round Law 13.3

13.3 A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball.
Not play the ball.
Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.

If Red is allowed to roll over and play the ball, then so is Blue and this seems to be exactly what 13.3 specificly forbids.

But as Rich NL points out the correct answer is actually neither A nor B (oops)

The correct answer, I believe, is

The ball is lost forward from Blue, so playing advantage to Red

Red commits an offence (playing ball on ground )

So no advantage gained, back to the knock on

Sanction for Blue KO in the in goal : 5m scrum to Red

Anyone seriously disagree ?
Yeah Im sorry - I do.
I'm awarding the try. The players, spectators, officials and even the sh!tting bird flying over will be expecting a try to be awarded.

I'm certainly not going to reward blues f@ck up in that zone by a small technicality of the player being on their feet in the scoring area. Was their action touching down the ball while off their feet their feet a positive or negative action.
You seem to want to apply the laws so rigidly that you've thrown empathy and feel for the game totally out the window. I would caution such an approach. It's almost like you have no feel for the game and what players are trying to achieve?
Youve played the game..if that was you rolling over to score would you really expect the ref to deny you after Blues monumental f@ck up?


I think that, as time goes on and we work through some scenarios , we see that 13.3 has a definite impact on the game
It will if you keep wanting to apply it so rigidly to the exact letter. You are going to kill the game. In such a dynamic sport you have to to bend a little on the laws.

DocY
06-02-19, 10:02
So here is what I think is the answer.

Much as I would like to award the try, I cannot get round Law 13.3

13.3 A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must:
Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball.
Not play the ball.
Not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.

If Red is allowed to roll over and play the ball, then so is Blue and this seems to be exactly what 13.3 specificly forbids.

But as Rich NL points out the correct answer is actually neither A nor B (oops)

The correct answer, I believe, is

The ball is lost forward from Blue, so playing advantage to Red

Red commits an offence (playing ball on ground )

So no advantage gained, back to the knock on

Sanction for Blue KO in the in goal : 5m scrum to Red

Anyone seriously disagree ?

I'd certainly err on awarding the try, but would have to see the situation. If the red player rolls several times, or crawls with no attempt to get back to his feet it'd be easier to penalise.

As others have said, not giving it would be a difficult sell, particularly if there was no clear knock on and the other option was a blue PK.

Likewise if blue touched it down in the same way I'd be hard-pressed to penalise him, but again, I'd have to see the situation.

crossref
06-02-19, 13:02
NB in the scenario the player has to roll over before he can reach out and ground the ball.

That was deliberate, so as to force you to consider 13.3 ..

TheBFG
26-02-19, 15:02
So if a ball is kicked into goal and a player slides to ground it (attacker or defender) you're going to penalise them for playing the ball while off their feet :chin:

OB..
26-02-19, 15:02
So if a ball is kicked into goal and a player slides to ground it (attacker or defender) you're going to penalise them for playing the ball while off their feet :chin:
Why? He is "going to ground to gather the ball" (and may at the same time play it by grounding it).