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crossref
05-02-19, 21:02
Time for a more light-hearted question : there is no way we can come to blows over this fun scenario.
(is there ?)

As always, give yourself as much time as you would on the pitch (not long, for this one) and then give your decision, A B C D or E. No Law Spoilers I'll provide an answer tomorrow.


White v Black in a crucial game

White are losing by one point with two minutes to go, when black give away a PK on the half way line.

Watched by a TV audience of millions, up steps Elliot Daly who lines up a 50m shot at posts to take the lead

Daly strikes the ball perfectly ... and it soars high through the air ... it's on target for a posts
... and it hits one of the cables that suspend the spider cam and falls down to the field of play ..

Your decision -

A Play on !
B Scrum White
C Scrum Black
D take the PK again
E judge whether the PK would have gone over or not and award it / restart with a DO accordingly

Taff
05-02-19, 21:02
A. Play on for me.

A year or so ago. I refereed a match where there were electricity cables going across the pitch at about 30' to 40' above the ground. During the PMB I said "If the ball hits a cable we play on OK!". One of the players laughed and said "I've been playing here for 10 years and I have never seen a ball hit those cables". Have a wild guess what happened? :biggrin:

Rich_NL
05-02-19, 21:02
B, scrum white

menace
05-02-19, 22:02
B. Scrum white. (Logic: Unusual stoppage..white going forward. Also akin to the ball hitting the ref and one team getting an advantage)????

But I play golf so I prefer its law with this and let them take it again!

SimonSmith
06-02-19, 00:02
This came up in a Hampshire referee meeting in the mid 90s. It was a pigeon that got struck however. It wasn't a "fun" question!

I have some pitches with unusual quirks in them in this area. We agree ground rules (which is actually the origin of the phrase) before we kick off.

I'm going scrum, kicking team.

Not Kurt Weaver
06-02-19, 03:02
I think it is a line out. To white

On the halfway line

Drift
06-02-19, 05:02
B - scrum white.

I remember the RWC in 03 being played in Oz. One of the grounds has a roof and they stipulated that if the ball hit the roof it was scrum to the kicking side so I am going with that logic.

DocY
06-02-19, 10:02
In law, it's a lineout to black in line with the kick - the ball hit something outside the FoP (IME this is more likely to be an overhanging tree) having not got there via a PK to touch.

But if I were really there, being fully confident in the world-class refereeing abilities that had been bestowed upon me to get me appointed to such a game, my response would be "Move the f****** camera and take the kick again!"

crossref
06-02-19, 13:02
So here is what I think is the correct answer

This situation is governed by 6.9.f

.
THE BALL BECOMES DEAD

The referee will deem the ball to be dead when:
a. The ball is in touch or touch in-goal.
b. The ball is grounded in in-goal.
c. A conversion has been attempted.
d. A try, penalty or dropped goal has been scored.
e. The ball or ball-carrier touches the dead-ball line or anything beyond it.
f. The ball hits anything above the playing area.


So the ball is dead.

I am surprised that people think a lineout would happen ? The ball is dead but it's not in touch

The restart is a scrum .

Where ? And who gets the put in?
That's not properly covered in Law .. while I know people could make a case to award it to the team going forward or the team attacking, in real life I would be astonished if anyone did anything different from
Place . Beneath where it hit the cable and went dead
Who puts in . White

So B Scrum White

Taff
06-02-19, 13:02
6.9 THE BALL BECOMES DEAD

The referee will deem the ball to be dead when:

f. The ball hits anything above the playing area.
Is that a new law then? I don't remember reading that before. :chin:

didds
06-02-19, 14:02
I am surprised that people think a lineout would happen ? The ball is dead but it's not in touch


I seem to recall from somewhere buried deep in the depths of what masquerades as my brain, from a time before something or other, that this concept is lifted from a ball hits overhanging tree branch -> tree roots/trunk are in touch -> ball is in touch -> lineout.

Of course that is now superseded possibly as CR has listed above.

didds

Pablo
06-02-19, 15:02
The bigger issue here is that crossref has misnumbered the quiz, as #7 was the tackle in goal question. Or are the quizzes being renumbered in the 2018 rewrite? :sarc:

crossref
06-02-19, 15:02
The bigger issue here is that crossref has misnumbered the quiz, as #7 was the tackle in goal question. Or are the quizzes being renumbered in the 2018 rewrite? :sarc:

Yes I have two #7 and can't edit the thread title

If some kind MOD could change the thread to be 8/10 Mind the Spider

That would be lovely

Rich_NL
06-02-19, 15:02
Is that a new law then? I don't remember reading that before. :chin:

Yep, IIRC it came in with the rewrite.

Dickie E
06-02-19, 15:02
6.9 THE BALL BECOMES DEAD

The referee will deem the ball to be dead when:

f. The ball hits anything above the playing area.


and that presumably excludes the crossbars?

Taff
06-02-19, 15:02
Yep, IIRC it came in with the rewrite.
Strange then that it isn't highlited as a law change. :chin:

DocY
06-02-19, 16:02
Strange then that it isn't highlited as a law change. :chin:

I imagine it was mentioned to those who might have cameras above the playing area some time ago, and that they forgot about those of us who have tree branches up there.

So another one that's a law change for some but not for others.

didds
06-02-19, 16:02
and that presumably excludes the crossbars?

or indeed the uprights/goal posts!

didds

crossref
06-02-19, 17:02
An interesting follow up to this question is scenarios such as

Red kick long for touch , the ball travels 40m upfield and just inside the touchline it makes a glancing contact with the spider cam , and continues into touch .

Decision ?

(a clue - this law is not properly thought through )

Not Kurt Weaver
07-02-19, 01:02
.
THE BALL BECOMES DEAD


f. The ball hits anything above the playing area.


So the ball is dead.

I am surprised that people think a lineout would happen ? The ball is dead but it's not in touch



Oh yes it is (in touch)

Touch or touch-in-goal

The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.

I bit ridiculous, but remember this is rugby not brain surgery. It is intentionally absurd. Trying to make sense of it is a fool's endeavor


Yes the ball is dead, why is it dead? the ball has touched anything beyond


Ain't it great, comedy. Alas we our again its (rugby) fools

menace
07-02-19, 02:02
Oh yes it is (in touch)

Touch or touch-in-goal

The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when:
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.

I bit ridiculous, but remember this is rugby not brain surgery. It is intentionally absurd. Trying to make sense of it is a fool's endeavor


Yes the ball is dead, why is it dead? the ball has touched anything beyond


Ain't it great, comedy. Alas we our again its (rugby) fools

Except for the bird that just sh@t on the ball out of the ruck and the #9 box kicks him up the arse.(over field of play)...he's not touching anything beyond or in touch???

Plus if a ball.is already dead at the moment it hits that object...it doesn't matter what happened next even if it does go across.plane of touch. Can a ball be dead twice???

menace
07-02-19, 02:02
An interesting follow up to this question is scenarios such as

Red kick long for touch , the ball travels 40m upfield and just inside the touchline it makes a glancing contact with the spider cam , and continues into touch .

Decision ?

(a clue - this law is not properly thought through )

Same as before...scrum..kickers feed. 5m line adjacent where it hit the drone .
But in fairness i would probably set the scrum from where the kick was. Equity and all that. Seems unfair for kicker to get gain in ground and feed. Seems enough that kicking team retains possession (and hope like hell they dont have a weak scrum!)

Not Kurt Weaver
07-02-19, 02:02
Except for the bird that just sh@t on the ball out of the ruck and the #9 box kicks him up the arse.(over field of play)...he's not touching anything beyond or in touch???

Plus if a ball.is already dead at the moment it hits that object...it doesn't matter what happened next even if it does go across.plane of touch. Can a ball be dead twice???

It is only dead once, when it hit the object beyond touch. in this case a camera suspended to wire connected beyond touch, no need to cross the plane

your bird example would be a scrum to the bird's opponent, the attacking team, or team last in possession or RPS

menace
07-02-19, 04:02
Yes...i see what you mean...the hip bone is connected to the thigh bone , connected to the leg bone, connected to the foot bone...and the foot is in touch!!!:hap:

crossref
07-02-19, 06:02
I think notion that 6.9.f isn't meant to cover the spider cam is far fetched , to say the least.
I am sure that 6.9.f was invented specially BECAUSE of the spider cam .. they have become ubiquitous and it suddenly occurred to WR that one day the ball will hit one, and they should have a Law to cover it

Not Kurt Weaver
07-02-19, 14:02
I think notion that 6.9.f isn't meant to cover the spider cam is far fetched , to say the least.
I am sure that 6.9.f was invented specially BECAUSE of the spider cam .. they have become ubiquitous and it suddenly occurred to WR that one day the ball will hit one, and they should have a Law to cover it

good point, but yet they (from above quote) did not include a specific sanction

crossref
07-02-19, 15:02
good point, but yet they (from above quote) did not include a specific sanction

Yes. It's not an infringement. The ball is just dead

OB..
07-02-19, 15:02
I think notion that 6.9.f isn't meant to cover the spider cam is far fetched , to say the least.
I am sure that 6.9.f was invented specially BECAUSE of the spider cam .. they have become ubiquitous and it suddenly occurred to WR that one day the ball will hit one, and they should have a Law to cover it
It has already happened.

2009 Wales v FranceOne of the most bizarre incidents to have happened on a pitch then unfolded, scrum-half Mike Phillips' kick hitting the overhead camera, albeit without any direct impact on the contest. Referee was Mark Lawrence.

2016 Australia v England Wallabies coach Michael Cheika's dissatisfaction over the officiating in his team's 3-0 series defeat by England has hit overdrive after the referee failed to intervene when the ball hit an overhead camera wire.Referee Nigel Owens https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-26/wallabies-michael-cheika-cry-foul-england-spidercam/7544234

In the 2017 book, "dead" was only defined in the DefinitionsDead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.
There was nothing in Law 6.

2019 Dead: (https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Dead)The ball is dead when the referee blows the whistle to stop play or following an unsuccessful conversion.
The link in the on-line version takes you to a list of places where the word "dead" is used in the laws. (Why else would you look in Law 6?)

6.9 (f) does not say what should happen, but since the ball is now dead, presumably we cannot just play on.

Scrum? 19.1 The referee awards a scrum for any other reason not covered in law on the basis that the consequence is not covered even though the reason is.

Free Kick? 20.1 requires an infringement.
"While the ball is dead"? Maybe.
"Any infringement that takes place outside the playing area while the ball is in play"? The ball is outside the playing area, but no longer in play.

Not Kurt Weaver
07-02-19, 16:02
Yes. It's not an infringement. The ball is just dead

Sorry Im out.

Just wrote a response and was timed out by site and didn't post.

Not Kurt Weaver
08-02-19, 03:02
White are losing by one point with two minutes to go, when black give away a PK on the half way line.



Let me reanswer to OP. Lineout to black on halfway, same touchline as sidemost from where was kicked.


Yes. It's not an infringement. The ball is just dead

Yep it is not an infringement, well maybe it is. I agree the ball is dead upon hitting overhead.

Well i know it is a far, far, far reach. But there is a law that does kinda indicate that it is dead because it is in touch. It did touch anything beyond the touchline. A tree branch or a spectator reaching for the ball whilst over the field would result in a l/o. This is not vastly different especially when this offers a way to restart the dead ball. 6.9f does not offer a restart. TBH with the feeds that take place, a l/o is just as equitable as a scrum. A l/o is not an unreasonable form of restart.

Now as to the possible infringement. The PK kicker used a place kick that, by my far, far, far reach went directly to touch. Directly to touch from a PK would normally be a white throw, however it wasn't kick as per.

Now to add further folly to the foolishness of rugby law. We have to define overhead. Is a player with his arms raised actually putting his hands in this overhead status.

I could go on. Making sense of this folly is part of the game.

"We are all prisoners here of our on device." Glenn Frey, I believe, circa 5th grade so 1975 ish

This was brilliant question. Thought provoking for some and a real strain of decency for others. Pure gold for me.

"Remember boys, we all think we know what we are doing, but really ain't a one of us has a clue" NKW circa 2019

Not Kurt Weaver
08-02-19, 03:02
Now to add further folly to the foolishness of rugby law. We have to define overhead. Is a player with his arms raised actually putting his hands in this overhead status.

9

This line is a total f up on my part

Oh my it is worse than I thought. The law has the the ball hitting anything above playing area.

Geez players are above the playing area. A player jumping would definitely be above the playing area. A player lifted in the l/o is above the playing area. How are we going to restart these dead ball events.

Does WR have any editors on staff?

Is NKW drinking again?

OB..
08-02-19, 11:02
Can we agree that "anything" is not the same as "anyone"? Then all we have to do is exclude the ball from our (a)musings. That can achieved by noting that the ball cannot hit itself.

Not Kurt Weaver
08-02-19, 12:02
Can we agree that "anything" is not the same as "anyone"? Then all we have to do is exclude the ball from our (a)musings. That can achieved by noting that the ball cannot hit itself.

Yes we can agree

Anything includes anyone. A human is a thing.

Anyone does not include anything. Anyone requires human being.

this rugby law is evident:

The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.

If the ball touches a human beyond the touch line it is in touch as well. There is an exception that a player (anyone and an anything) to knock the ball to remain in play with specific criteria.