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Dickie E
27-02-19, 02:02
have a look at the penalty awarded at 15:48 on the TV clock (26:10 on youtube clock). Was this a referee brain fart or am I missing something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xoMVmtWeY

Camquin
27-02-19, 08:02
The only mistake I see is from green 7 who plays the ball from an off side position.
7 is running across from the line out towards play but is never onside.
That is fine provided he gets onside before playing the ball.
But when the knock on occurs he falls on the ball from in front.

Dickie E
27-02-19, 09:02
The only mistake I see is from green 7 who plays the ball from an off side position.
7 is running across from the line out towards play but is never onside.
That is fine provided he gets onside before playing the ball.
But when the knock on occurs he falls on the ball from in front.

Green 7 didn't participate in the lineout. He was in the centres. It looks pretty clear to me that when the knock on occurred he was behind the player who knocks on. What happens after that has no bearing.

Rich_NL
27-02-19, 09:02
Referee brain fart, or a bad angle - he's tracking back at 45 degrees.

It was not the only unusual decision in this game.

Camquin
27-02-19, 09:02
I watched it through once, so it could be a case of seeing what we expect to see.
In which case i am in company with a top ref, does that mean I can do asix nations match :-)

didds
27-02-19, 10:02
At the moment of knock on green 7 is ONSIDE. He runs past the ball, turns and then claims it . But he was onside when his team mate played it.

3861

Ref mistake.


Video URL with time introduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xoMVmtWeY&feature=youtu.be&t=1566

Dickie E
27-02-19, 10:02
a trap for the unwary

Taff
27-02-19, 11:02
When I first saw it I thought the Ref got it right.

Playing it back again though and I would say it was a mistake .... but the Ref doesn't get a second chance to play it back again.

didds
27-02-19, 12:02
Is offside not a "can you just check this " option at the next dead ball?

(I suspect not).



didds

Rich_NL
27-02-19, 13:02
You could ask Craig Joubert about using the TMO to check offside...

ctrainor
27-02-19, 14:02
I thought it was wrong at the time, ref made a mistake

Decorily
27-02-19, 20:02
I thought it was a mistake by the ref at the time.
I'm surprised that it wasn't queried by the penalised player.

Dickie E
27-02-19, 21:02
When I first saw it I thought the Ref got it right.

Playing it back again though and I would say it was a mistake .... but the Ref doesn't get a second chance to play it back again.

that's why he gets the big bucks.

It's one think to miss an offence ... it's a totally different think to imagine you saw an offence. He needs to revisit his mental checklist.

Zebra1922
27-02-19, 22:02
I wouldn't say a brain fart but it was a mistake. When I saw it live on TV I thought penalty, as you appeared to have green 7 ahead of the knock on and returning to collect. Only after seeing a replay did I then realise at the time of the KO he was onside.

So yes an error, but an understandable one as live on TV it did look offside.

Dickie E
27-02-19, 22:02
I guess karma then did what it does best with the Italians missing the shot at goal

crossref
27-02-19, 22:02
finally watched it -- AH! it's that one!

I did catch that live! I immediately said : hang on, was he actually in front?

but it was hard to be sure watching once in real time

ChuckieB
27-02-19, 23:02
When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player isliable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.Sanction: Penalty kick





From the 2017 law book becuase it's the one I learned from. Deliberately playing the ball and killing an advantage. When he plays the ball he is offside as he is in front of the player who last played the ball.

think back to that controversial call in the lions tour where it was rather a case of accidental vs deliberately playing the ball.

Decorily
27-02-19, 23:02
When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player isliable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.Sanction: [COLOR=#B80007][FONT=FSBlake]Penalty kick





From the 2017 law book becuase it's the one I learned from. Deliberately playing the ball and killing an advantage. When he plays the ball he is offside as he is in front of the player who last played the ball.

All good, but I think the point here is that Green 7 was not in front of his team mate who last played the ball.

ChuckieB
27-02-19, 23:02
All good, but I think the point here is that Green 7 was not in front of his team mate who last played the ball.

He is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Because the ball has been knocked on he can't play it from an on side position. Not to be confused with something like a kick ahead . It may sound counterintuitive in that context but it does have its own ruling and it is killing the advantage.

Decorily
28-02-19, 00:02
It's my opinion, and it would seem to be the opinion of many others, that he was not in front of the last player to play the ball at the time the ball was played. In other words he came from an onside position and was legally playing the ball. It is my opinion that the referee made an error in this instance.

chbg
28-02-19, 00:02
He is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Because the ball has been knocked on he can't play it from an on side position. Not to be confused with something like a kick ahead . It may sound counterintuitive in that context but it does have its own ruling and it is killing the advantage.

When the KO occurred he was not offside, therefore he was on-side. As no-one else played the ball (unless the original KO player had a second KO touch of the ball), he remains on-side independent of from which direction he approaches the ball.

ChuckieB
28-02-19, 00:02
When the KO occurred he was not offside, therefore he was on-side. As no-one else played the ball (unless the original KO player had a second KO touch of the ball), he remains on-side independent of from which direction he approaches the ball.

What would be the law reference to confirm your assertion he is onside? You are only onside if you or not offside and the only point at which being onside is referred to in the older versions of the laws is at the start of the game. From then on you may find yourself offside in any instance by being in front of a player who last played the ball and thus liable to penalty. When you are offside in this way you have to make yourself onside. No references to being onside because you ran from an onside position before you played the ball.

Dickie E
28-02-19, 02:02
What would be the law reference to confirm your assertion he is onside?

Law 10.1:

A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it


As Green #7 was behind the team mate who knocked the ball on when he knocked it on, he is onside and free to continue to participate in the game.

It is quite legal for him to play the ball even if it prevents the opposition from trying to gain an advantage.

OB..
28-02-19, 12:02
Onside or offside is determined at the moment the ball is (mis)played. There is a diagram in the laws demonstrating this - it shows that a player coming from behind the kicker is onside. He does not become offside on passing the teammate who last played the ball.
10.7 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.


This is so well known that the lawmakers did not realise 10.1 could be misunderstood as saying that you become offside when you pass the player who knocked on.

ChuckieB
28-02-19, 12:02
Onside or offside is determined at the moment the ball is (mis)played. There is a diagram in the laws demonstrating this - it shows that a player coming from behind the kicker is onside. He does not become offside on passing the teammate who last played the ball.
10.7 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.




...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.

nhughes
28-02-19, 12:02
Forgive my simplicity here but seeing as the ball was knocked on by green 14 why does it matter that green 7 was offside or not? To my mind it's a penalty for a knock on instead of offside as given. Sorry but a bit lost as to what the problem is other than giving a penalty instead of a scrum?

Arabcheif
28-02-19, 13:02
...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.


No-one is saying there was no offence. There was a knock-on. The Green 7 ran passed his team mate (was on-side) then went to ground to protect the ball. This is not an offence. The offence is the knock on, so scrum Blue should've been the correct call as there was no advantage. Green 7 committed no offence.

I thought this was weird myself when I watched it and wondered who had been deemed offside.

Rich_NL
28-02-19, 13:02
...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.

At the point of the ball being played, all team mates in front of the ball player are offside. This was not the case here. The player went to ground to gather the ball, as was his right, and was incorrectly penalised for something he did not do. Had he secured the ball, the correct call would be to go back for the scrum.


Forgive my simplicity here but seeing as the ball was knocked on by green 14 why does it matter that green 7 was offside or not? To my mind it's a penalty for a knock on instead of offside as given. Sorry but a bit lost as to what the problem is other than giving a penalty instead of a scrum?

I really don't follow this point. Penalties and scrums are not interchangeable; why would you give a penalty for an accidental knock on like that? Why is awarding the Italians a penalty for an offence that didn't happen not a problem?

SimonSmith
28-02-19, 13:02
...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.

if I'm understanding this correctly:
You are arguing that if Green knock on, they should leave the ball for Blue to play to use advantage from the knock on?

This is Chopper territory. There is no obligation on Green to do that in any way.

Taff
28-02-19, 14:02
Forgive my simplicity here but seeing as the ball was knocked on by green 14 why does it matter that green 7 was offside or not? To my mind it's a penalty for a knock on instead of offside as given. Sorry but a bit lost as to what the problem is other than giving a penalty instead of a scrum?
Yes, it does matter if Green 7 was offside or not.

If he wasn't offside then it's just a scrum as you suggest for an accidental knock on.

If he was offside and played the ball, then it's a Penalty kick (PK) offence for being offside and playing the ball.

didds
28-02-19, 14:02
Forgive my simplicity here but seeing as the ball was knocked on by green 14 why does it matter that green 7 was offside or not? To my mind it's a penalty for a knock on instead of offside as given. Sorry but a bit lost as to what the problem is other than giving a penalty instead of a scrum?

a penalty for a knock-on? (I note its not deliberate etc etc).

??

didds

OB..
28-02-19, 18:02
...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.The ball was knocked on by Green 14. At that moment Green 7 was behind him and therefore NOT offside. He can therefore run in front of Green 14 and play the ball - he does NOT become offside when going past Green 14. The result is a scrum against Green 14.

(The problem was that Green 7 was incorrectly judged to be in front of Green 14 when he knocked on.)

ChuckieB
28-02-19, 21:02
The ball was knocked on by Green 14. At that moment Green 7 was behind him and therefore NOT offside. He can therefore run in front of Green 14 and play the ball - he does NOT become offside when going past Green 14. The result is a scrum against Green 14.

(The problem was that Green 7 was incorrectly judged to be in front of Green 14 when he knocked on.)

Do coaches have the mindset to coach , "If a ball is knocked on, kill it."? This will immediately and deliberately deny the chance of any advantage.

Just asking. Doesn't seem wholly equitable perhaps?

Wedgie
28-02-19, 21:02
Do coaches have the mindset to coach , "If a ball is knocked on, kill it."? This will immediately and deliberately deny the chance of any advantage.

Just asking. Doesn't seem wholly equitable perhaps?

If Green 7 was close enough to get to the knocked-on ball before Blue, then it is unlikely that any advantage would have accrued had he not played the ball - as he would have been close enough to tackle any Blue player as soon as *they* did. Scrum to Blue from the knock on or Blue tackled in possession of the ball. Not much in it.

crossref
28-02-19, 21:02
Do coaches have the mindset to coach , "If a ball is knocked on, kill it."? This will immediately and deliberately deny the chance of any advantage.

Just asking. Doesn't seem wholly equitable perhaps?

Of course they do !
Play to the whistle, until the whistle goes the whole team are still competing for the ball (legally) advantage doesn't mean : allow the other team to get an advantage

Marc Wakeham
28-02-19, 22:02
Do coaches have the mindset to coach , "If a ball is knocked on, kill it."? This will immediately and deliberately deny the chance of any advantage.

Just asking. Doesn't seem wholly equitable perhaps?

Of course they do.

Marc Wakeham
28-02-19, 22:02
He is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Because the ball has been knocked on he can't play it from an on side position. Not to be confused with something like a kick ahead . It may sound counterintuitive in that context but it does have its own ruling and it is killing the advantage.

Simply wrong in law. Sorry.

Dickie E
28-02-19, 22:02
If I was the captain or coach, and one of my team knocked the ball on, then stood there like a stunned mullet waiting for the opposition to try to gain an advantage ... I'd be having words.

Marc Wakeham
28-02-19, 22:02
What would be the law reference to confirm your assertion he is onside? You are only onside if you or not offside and the only point at which being onside is referred to in the older versions of the laws is at the start of the game. From then on you may find yourself offside in any instance by being in front of a player who last played the ball and thus liable to penalty. When you are offside in this way you have to make yourself onside. No references to being onside because you ran from an onside position before you played the ball.

If this made any sense you could never chase a kick. Sorry this is worrying .

Marc Wakeham
28-02-19, 22:02
...at the point the ball is (mis)played by whom?

In this instance if the majority commenting are suggesting there was no offence. What then?

Your unintended consequence opens up the scope for players to get it into their psyche to deliberately kill the ball without risk of sanction.

Hardly in accord with the spirit and intent of the advantage law.

Which is exactly what any good player would do. Your team has conceded the scrum why would they, potentialy give up a try? Sorry but you are so far off the ball here.

Marc Wakeham
28-02-19, 22:02
Forgive my simplicity here but seeing as the ball was knocked on by green 14 why does it matter that green 7 was offside or not? To my mind it's a penalty for a knock on instead of offside as given. Sorry but a bit lost as to what the problem is other than giving a penalty instead of a scrum?

An unintentional Knock on is a scrum offence. Law 19.1 First item in the matrix.

crossref
28-02-19, 22:02
Of course they do

Of course they do.

I am enjoying being on Marc's ignore list :smile:

menace
28-02-19, 22:02
I am enjoying being on Marc's ignore list

Why do i get the sense that the feelings would be mutual???:biggrin:

crossref
28-02-19, 23:02
Why do i get the sense that the feelings would be mutual???:biggrin:

but marc won't quite know what happened ! :)

Treadmore
01-03-19, 09:03
Green 7 didn't participate in the lineout. He was in the centres. It looks pretty clear to me that when the knock on occurred he was behind the player who knocks on. What happens after that has no bearing.
:chin: Ref appears to indicate the with left arm that the ball when backwards at the time and then after blowing whistle explains "bounced forward, you were offside"

Doesn't change the discussion around green 7 being onside (he was) just interested that everyone in the thread has called it a knock-on when the ref didn't...

didds
01-03-19, 09:03
Do coaches have the mindset to coach , "If a ball is knocked on, kill it."? This will immediately and deliberately deny the chance of any advantage.

Just asking. Doesn't seem wholly equitable perhaps?

If it helps I don't. But TBH I think that is potentially already in the mindset of most players. And if not kill it particular;ly its there to "claim the ball". Its a commendation of many players understanding and reactions that mostly they understand when they are potentially offside from a knock on and do NOT claim the ball. IME. YMMV.

didds

crossref
01-03-19, 13:03
The coaching message is : play to the whistle .

nhughes
01-03-19, 15:03
Yes, it does matter if Green 7 was offside or not.

If he wasn't offside then it's just a scrum as you suggest for an accidental knock on.

If he was offside and played the ball, then it's a Penalty kick (PK) offence for being offside and playing the ball.

Thanks that answered my question clearly.