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oldman
24-08-19, 20:08
Guys,
My club have decided to have a small groupie of competent TJ's for the coming season. As an ex-referee I have been asked by the club to offer advice as to when the ball is out (over the touchline). I seem to remember a document from, I think Australia, that covered this does anyone have any ideas of where I could find this?
Many thanks.

Decorily
24-08-19, 21:08
I remember the document you refer to....not sure if it current!

Good luck getting 'competent' TJs....

Touch laws in my opinion are among the most difficult to understand and implement!
If you can get volunteers that are competent and capable to act as TJs then they should be well worth following up to become referees!

Balones
24-08-19, 21:08
It’s out of date. The other reference is the law book. !!

Decorily
24-08-19, 22:08
Law book.....is that out of date?

tewdric
25-08-19, 21:08
Get the World Rugby laws app - touch laws have changed quite significantly recently.

Dickie E
26-08-19, 02:08
this is the document referred to. It is now very out of date. Peter Marshall as a boy.

Would be nice to have an updated version.

http://potomacreferees.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Australian-Line_Ball_booklet.pdf

didds
27-08-19, 12:08
D&W society iused to run club TJ courses - I did one years ago. maybe your society does similar?

didds

Arabcheif
28-08-19, 12:08
Ball is in touch if it hit the ground, anything outside the field of play, spectator/man walking a dog (or the dog)/fence/wall etc. Or is caught by a player with one or more foot/feet on or beyond the touch-line. Here's where is starts getting funny though.

Blue Player catches ball - ball has crossed the touch-line but not hit anything - both players feet are in the Field of Play. Ball not in touch play on.

Blue Player catches ball - ball has crossed the touch-line but not hit anything - player is standing with one foot on the Field of Play and one on or beyond the touch line. Ball is in touch. LO to the Blue team as the ball was caught beyond the touch-line.

Blue Player catches ball - ball has not crossed the touch-line - player is standing with one foot on the Field of Play and one on or beyond the touch line. Ball is in touch. LO to the red team as the ball was caught and made in-touch by Blue.

Ball kicked - Blue player jumps from the field of play taps the ball backwards back into the Field of Play - Play on.

Id suggest to refer to the World Rugby website or app.

WoodyOne
25-11-19, 13:11
In my last 2 games in penalty (kicking for touch) scenario I've had players run into touch and attempt to knock the ball -- which has crossed the plane of touch -- back into play by jumping up so that they aren't in contact with the ground when they hit the ball (they subsequently land pretty much where they started, i.e. in touch).

Neither time has it worked (the hit isn't accurate enough and the ball lands in touch) but is illegitimate anyway. But since players are trying it, it's worth knowing about.

didds
25-11-19, 14:11
why is it illegitimate?

didds

crossref
25-11-19, 15:11
I have had it as well, players watched the RWC but dont fully understand all the nuances and permutations in the Law ... And neither does the TJ !

OB..
25-11-19, 15:11
why is it illegitimate?

didds
The player is in touch. Jumping in the air does not change that, since he lands back in touch.

crossref
25-11-19, 15:11
with both the ball and the player outside the plane, he would have to catch it, and land inside

didds
25-11-19, 16:11
oh - gotcha - yes, I knew that. I was querying "illegitimate". its a legitimate action, but it wont get the result the player was hoping for :-)

nuances eh? *tsk*

LOL

didds

Dickie E
25-11-19, 20:11
why is it illegitimate?

didds


or the law about not entering the playing area without the referee's permission thing?

I once saw a German ref PK a receiver at the game start kick off fro starting outside touch and running forward in-field towards the ball to catch it mind....


didds

msf..

crossref
25-11-19, 21:11
The Law specifically allows players in touch to take part in play . Knocking balls, .. scoring a try even

didds
26-11-19, 09:11
msf..

male seeks female?

Phil E
26-11-19, 09:11
Guys,
My club have decided to have a small groupie of competent TJ's for the coming season. As an ex-referee I have been asked by the club to offer advice as to when the ball is out (over the touchline). I seem to remember a document from, I think Australia, that covered this does anyone have any ideas of where I could find this?
Many thanks.

I would suggest that Law 18 tells you just about everything you need. It's one of the things in the current law book I find clear. All you need to do is add some real life examples for your students.

1. The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when :
a. The ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything
beyond.
b. A player, who is already touching the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything
beyond, catches or holds the ball.
i. If the ball has reached the plane of touch when it is caught, the catcher is
not deemed to have taken the ball into touch.
ii. If the ball has not reached the plane of touch when it is caught or picked up,
the catcher is deemed to have taken the ball into touch, regardless of
whether the ball was in motion or stationary.

2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if :
a. The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player
who is in the playing area.
b. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and
then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of
touch.
c. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball
back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of
whether the ball reached the plane of touch.
d. A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it
has not reached the plane of touch.

Then add a bit about quick throws (when allowed), and go through the table in the laws about location of the mark and who throws in. Pages 81-84

Dickie E
26-11-19, 10:11
this confuses me a bit:

2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if :
a. The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player
who is in the playing area.

a player leans over touchline and knocks the ball (ie ball not in touch). Ball then falls to ground (ie ball in touch). Who put it there?

Flish
26-11-19, 10:11
At the point it's touched it's not in touch, so go back to the beginning of the process when it hits the deck, now that it is in touch, put there by the player who touched it last - or am I missing a nuance?

Dickie E
26-11-19, 11:11
At the point it's touched it's not in touch, so go back to the beginning of the process when it hits the deck, now that it is in touch, put there by the player who touched it last - or am I missing a nuance?

but:

If the ball has reached the plane of touch when it is caught, the catcher is not deemed to have taken the ball into touch.

Flish
26-11-19, 11:11
But he didn't catch it, so we have a scenario where a player (not in touch) touches the ball (not in touch) and then it ends up in touch. If he had caught it then play on

Arabcheif
26-11-19, 13:11
OK, so going back to post #9.
The Law book seems to be saying that as long as the player who is in touch doesn't catch the ball, he/she is permitted to play the ball back onto the field of play. So it may be irrelavent if they jump or remain on the ground. So in the scenarios that the WoodyOne had, if they were able to knock the ball back into play, we should have a live ball play on scenario. Unless either a) I'm missing something or b) The Law Book is wrong :chin:

crossref
26-11-19, 13:11
OK, so going back to post #9.
The Law book seems to be saying that as long as the player who is in touch doesn't catch the ball, he/she is permitted to play the ball back onto the field of play. So it may be irrelavent if they jump or remain on the ground. So in the scenarios that the WoodyOne had, if they were able to knock the ball back into play, we should have a live ball play on scenario. Unless either a) I'm missing something or b) The Law Book is wrong :chin:

If you are in touch you can only knock a ball that hasn't passed the plane

Pinky
26-11-19, 13:11
But he didn't catch it, so we have a scenario where a player (not in touch) touches the ball (not in touch) and then it ends up in touch. If he had caught it then play on

I agree if he caught it it is play on, but if he did not catch it I htink you are back to looking at whether it made it to the plane of touch before he played it. If so, then he did not take it out (like a catcher) but if not, then obviously he put it out as he played it before it crossed the plane of touch.

Arabcheif
26-11-19, 16:11
Ah yes, I missed that part. Must've got distracted by a pesky customer hehe.

WoodyOne
26-11-19, 16:11
OK, so going back to post #9.
The Law book seems to be saying that as long as the player who is in touch doesn't catch the ball, he/she is permitted to play the ball back onto the field of play. So it may be irrelavent if they jump or remain on the ground. So in the scenarios that the WoodyOne had, if they were able to knock the ball back into play, we should have a live ball play on scenario. Unless either a) I'm missing something or b) The Law Book is wrong :chin:

take a look at 18.2 a-d. Player starts in touch, finishes in touch, and hits the ball that is already over the plane of touch. That scenarios isn't covered in 18.2 a-d, therefore the ball is in touch even if they knock it back into the field of play.

Flish
26-11-19, 21:11
So glad I‘m almost never in a position to see, let alone make a judgement on these small margins!

Pinky
27-11-19, 16:11
So glad I‘m almost never in a position to see, let alone make a judgement on these small margins!

If you always ref with a TO3, then lucky you! If not, then you might have to consider sprint training :o)

Flish
27-11-19, 17:11
If you always ref with a TO3, then lucky you! If not, then you might have to consider sprint training :o)

Nah, I’m mostly in the middle, at the wrong angle with players as TJ’s (sometimes facing the right way), very rare I have to consider the plane of touch at all.