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peperami
18-02-07, 13:02
In general play, a Gold player on the half-way line kicks the ball into Blue's in-goal area where it stops one meter from the touch-in-goal line. A defending Blue player, standing with one foot in touch-in-goal, picks up the ball. What do you do?
Incorrect - You answered D.
The correct answer is: A.
22.11a : When the ball touches the corner post, the touch-in-goal line, or the dead ball line, or touches anyone or anything beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by the attacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was played into in-goal by the defending team, a 5-meter scrum shall be awarded and the attacking team throws in the ball.


Should the answer not be kick or scrum as the ball has gone directly dead.

As we give touch if a player is stood in touch when he plays the ball

Ben

OB..
18-02-07, 14:02
There is some subtlety here. IRB Ruling 14 of 2003:-
If a player with one or both feet inside the 22 metre line, picks up the ball which was stationary outside the 22 metre line, and kicks it directly into touch, then the player has taken the ball back inside the 22-metre line, and therefore the line-out is formed in line with where the ball was kicked.
If a player with one or both feet inside the 22 metre line, picks up the ball which was in motion outside the 22 metre line, and kicks it directly into touch, then the player has not taken the ball back inside the 22-metre line, and therefore the line-out is formed in line with where the ball crossed the touch-line.

The same principle is usually applied elsewhere eg player in in-goal, or player in touch.

Since the question specifically says the ball had stopped, the defender is therefore deemed to have taken the ball into touch-in-goal. Since the attacker did not kick the ball dead, it is a drop-out.

mkottke
19-02-07, 20:02
There is some subtlety here. IRB Ruling 14 of 2003:-

The same principle is usually applied elsewhere eg player in in-goal, or player in touch.

Since the question specifically says the ball had stopped, the defender is therefore deemed to have taken the ball into touch-in-goal. Since the attacker did not kick the ball dead, it is a drop-out.

Based on the IRB ruling, the stopped ball was made dead by the defending player. Shouldn't the correct answer be a 5m scrum to the kicking team not a drop-out.

-Mark

didds
19-02-07, 20:02
Based on the IRB ruling, the stopped ball was made dead by the defending player. Shouldn't the correct answer be a 5m scrum to the kicking team not a drop-out.

-Mark

No. Kicking team placed ball into the in-goal area, subsequently made dead.

Its a 22m drop out.

Dropouts/5m scrums are about who was responsible for putting the ball in-goal NOT about who made it dead. If not sides would be using rugby league tactics of grubbing into in-goal then hammering the defender that fields the ball.

didds

Davet
21-02-07, 14:02
The option of scrum where kicked from or 22 drop out was introduced to try to discourage players just hoofing the ball dead, here the kick was good enough not to goo too far, and the defender chose to make it dead - I think the 22 would be fair.

Dixie
22-02-07, 09:02
There is some subtlety here. IRB Ruling 14 of 2003:-
If a player with one or both feet inside the 22 metre line, picks up the ball which was stationary outside the 22 metre line, and kicks it directly into touch, then the player has taken the ball back inside the 22-metre line, and therefore the line-out is formed in line with where the ball was kicked.
If a player with one or both feet inside the 22 metre line, picks up the ball which was in motion outside the 22 metre line, and kicks it directly into touch, then the player has not taken the ball back inside the 22-metre line, and therefore the line-out is formed in line with where the ball crossed the touch-line.

The same principle is usually applied elsewhere eg player in in-goal, or player in touch.

Since the question specifically says the ball had stopped, the defender is therefore deemed to have taken the ball into touch-in-goal. Since the attacker did not kick the ball dead, it is a drop-out.

So what would be the situation of the ball was moving when the defender gathered it? Presumably, applying OB's logic of applying the same principle as the 22-metre situation, the defender has not taken the ball into touch in-goal? Don't like that. It would be better if at this point we abandon the 22-metre parallel and revert to normal concepts of touch - in which case the ball had touched something or someone in touch in-goal before the kicking phase is over, so the kick went straight into touch in-goal, and so the ref awards the option.

I don't think the IRB ruling is necessary at all here. We can get to the right answer using the Laws themselves. When the ball stops, the kick is complete. The kicker did not put the ball into Touch in-goal. When the defender did so, the 22m arises, because the kicker certainly put the ball in-goal. If the ball is in motion when it is picked up by the in-goal defender, the kick is still active, so the kicker has put the ball into touch in-goal in the same way as if the ball had touched a corner flag - the option applies.

OB..
22-02-07, 11:02
Dixie - I think your final paragraph is simply paraphrasing the IRB Ruling. I see nothing in the laws about distinguishing between a kick being complete or still alive - which is why the IRB felt they had to rule.

The definitions in Law 19 muddy the waters a little.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touch-line or the ground beyond the touch-line.
If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.

What happens if he picks up the ball? Is that the same as holding? Does it matter if the ball is still moving? What if the ball is indeed still moving - slightly away from the touchline?

Davet
23-02-07, 12:02
If he picks it up then he is, for a time, holding it. Its hard to pick something up without holding it.

Please lets not worry about if he scoops it and supports it on the palm of a hand - philosphy is great fun, but generally of little practical application.

If you believed Zeno then Achilles would never catch the tortoise!

OB..
23-02-07, 13:02
I agree. Similarly, if you catch the ball, you hold it.

I was having a dig at the law - I see no need for the first sentence I quoted. The important distinction is between having the foot in touch when you first get the ball, and putting it there afterwards.

There is also a meaningful distinction between touching and holding.

I think I may have mentioned before that I think Law 19 needs re-writing. It has too many accretions.

beckett50
23-02-07, 16:02
Remember that a try can be scored by someone standing in touch in-goal!

So I would favour the "defender made the ball dead, but was kicked into in-goal by attacking team, so 22m drop out" arguement.