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Robert Burns
10-01-04, 00:01
We have a sittuation where a number of our members don't seem to know what their grade is?

There are a couple possibilities as to why I can think of, but thats it:

1, They are so new that they have not done a course and don't know the grading system.

2, The Society has not told them what grade they are.

Is this the case for you?

There are also a few members that seem to be unsure of their society, slightly worrying in my opinion.

What do the rest think?

penrose
13-01-04, 19:01
We have a sittuation where a number of our members don't seem to know what their grade is?

There are a couple possibilities as to why I can think of, but thats it:

1, They are so new that they have not done a course and don't know the grading system.

2, The Society has not told them what grade they are.

Is this the case for you?

There are also a few members that seem to be unsure of their society, slightly worrying in my opinion.

What do the rest think?

Generally a new member will start at C3 unless they have transfered from another Society with suitable acreditation and will, therefore, be graded accordingly.

All members should attend their regional meetings where the question could be addressed quite simply.

If your not sure of your Society/ region who is allocating your games ? If you are allocated games I would suggest you telephone the person and ask the question, "what region am I in", simple!

Davet
27-01-04, 12:01
Generally a new member will start at C3 unless they have transfered from another Society with suitable acreditation and will, therefore, be graded accordingly.

All members should attend their regional meetings where the question could be addressed quite simply.

If your not sure of your Society/ region who is allocating your games ? If you are allocated games I would suggest you telephone the person and ask the question, "what region am I in", simple!

As far as I am aware the old C3 through B1* grades are defunct.

Grades are now the same as levels of game which one refs - Level 1 being ZP, L2 Nat 1 etc down through. We are classed at a given level, and may do games one level above - on an occasional basis.

This is - I beleive - linked to the abandonment of the old C grade and B grade courses which are being replaced pretty much as of now.

Robert Burns
27-01-04, 13:01
I have heard of this but was under the impression that it was just an idea they were toying with, and that you could referee upto 3 levels above your own.

The problem that was raised if I remember correctly was that how do people then get promoted?

personally, I like the old grading system it is very clear and gives you clear goals to aim for.

MrBadger
29-01-04, 12:01
I agree - grades are good.

Hope this site flourishes!

Frankie
04-02-04, 22:02
I know I'm a Level 1 WRU Referee. What grade that makes me in RFU terms, I don't know. Can anyone enlighten me?

Robert Burns
04-02-04, 22:02
What level games do you do? is that Level 1 too?

Frankie
05-02-04, 08:02
What level games do you do? is that Level 1 too?


District Level - WDRU 1st XVs, WRU 2nd XVs and Youth etc.

Robert Burns
05-02-04, 09:02
Hmm,

I think an email to some friends in the RFU asking to show comparison between the grades and levels is needed, I'll get back to you all on this!

Robert Burns
05-02-04, 16:02
Ok, I have spoken to said friend and this is what I have been told:

Levels will be throughout the game next season. There is no point in publishing levels v grades as they will not equate. If they have a level that is the maximum they will operate to. An example is that a B1 referee can do games in theory at level 5, yet in reality when free they will usually operate at level 8 or below. I would expect a region to assess them in the season as 8 +2 (for example) which means they normally ref at Level 8 yet in the absence of higher graded refs someone could appoint them to a level 6 game as that is the highest they would have refereed this season and been assessed at.

So, I shall in due course change the grade to normal game level, or similar.

Account Deleted
10-02-04, 13:02
I am a level 1 here in Wales. I don't understand your gradings. I look forward to intersting debates on the site!

Davet
10-02-04, 16:02
I am a level 1 here in Wales. I don't understand your gradings. I look forward to intersting debates on the site!

English levels would go - using my own county as an example:-

Zurich Premiership = L1
National 1 = L2
National 2 = L3
National 3 North/South = L4
London 1 = L5
London2 N/S = L6
London 3 (NE/NW/SE/SW) = L7
London 4 (NE/NW/SE/SW) = L8
Hampshire 1 = L9
Hampshire 2 = L10
Hampshire 3 = L11


So How does it work in the WRU - as a level 1 ref are you doing Celtic League games?

Account Deleted
10-02-04, 21:02
Level 1 is the starting level. So it's quite a junior position for now. I only passed my WRU course in September. I don't know too much about the grades above that.

Robert Burns
10-02-04, 23:02
seems top be the other way around to us.

From what I gather the game levels correspond to our old grading systems as such:

Panel = Levels 1 - 5
B1 = Levels 5 - 8
B2 = Levels 6 - 9
B3 = Levels 7 - 10
C1 = Levels 8 - 11
C2 = Levels 9 - 12
C3 = Levels 10 and lower

Please note that this is my comparison and is just estimated.

Level 1 being Zurich Premiership
Level 90 Being Schools.

didds
11-02-04, 08:02
English levels would go - using my own county as an example:-

Zurich Premiership = L1
National 1 = L2
National 2 = L3
National 3 North/South = L4
London 1 = L5
London2 N/S = L6
London 3 (NE/NW/SE/SW) = L7
London 4 (NE/NW/SE/SW) = L8
Hampshire 1 = L9
Hampshire 2 = L10
Hampshire 3 = L11


So How does it work in the WRU - as a level 1 ref are you doing Celtic League games?

But unfortunately - especially for referees - within this system there are anomalies - contrast Dave's hanmpshire scenario with ours in Wiltshire - a neighbouring county!

Levels 1-4 = same
South-West 1 = L5
South-West 2 = L6
Southern Counties (N/S) = L7
Dorset & Wiltshire 1 = L8
Dorset & Wiltshire 2 = L9

Now ... our 3rd XV play in D&W 2... making them a L9 fixture. Wheras Andover 1sts (?) play in Hampshire 1 at L8; but I would suggest there is a huge differential between the playing standards, the abilities and the pace... and the requirements of a ref!

didds

PeterH
14-03-04, 08:03
Hmmm (this is my first post so - be gentle lol)

I am in the middle of applying to become a ref... detached retinas finally forcing the abandonment of my beloved front row

(I know - I have heard the jokes about ref's vision!)

So - I am planning on joining the Liverpool society... probably looking at next season anyway now (do courses over the summer I presume?)... will I be looking at levels for next season rather than grades then?

And just how many levels are there - would like to aim my sights accurately :D

Deeps
14-03-04, 21:03
And just how many levels are there - would like to aim my sights accurately :D

When you complete your referee's training normally you will be granted a low grading initially. Under the previous system this would have been a D grade. You would then be watched by a society Advisor who would recommend a grade, say C3 (= Level 12 approx.). This allows the appointer/reappointers to give you games that equate to your ability as a referee. Promotion is then a function of the feedback on your performance to the Grading Committee in your society from feedback cards (completed by the team captains after the game) and from Advisors reports. Clearly the earlier you start your refereeing career, the greater the opportunity you will have of promotion. Those who start at the end of their playing career will have less time to rise to stardom.

The object of the exercise is to match your ability as a referee to the perceived difficulty of individual games as far as possible. Thus the two teams get good service and so do you. Result, everyone enjoys themselves. As to how many levels there are, the short answer is (I think) 1 - 16 although I have not seen any advertised as lower than 13 here in Hampshire. What you have to do is to find the level attached to a particular team to guage the qualification of the referee needed for that game.

The current top team in my neck of the woods plays in English National League 3. This gives them a rating of Level 4, their 2nd XV would probably be rated L4+3=7, their 3rd XV L4+5=9. But then there will be teams in the lower county leagues that will be rated L10, L11. School 1st XVs might be L9 as might Uni 2nd XVs. Then for Sunday morning junior sides, U16s could well be considered as L11 and U14s L13. As you can see, it is a little complicated. What you have to do once qualified is get out there, referee at least once per week September - May, get consistently good feedback reports, hope for the occasional visit of an Advisor to watch your game and perhaps, perhaps you might move up a level at the end of the season.

Whatever the level of game, the reward comes when the players have enjoyed themselves, whatever the result, and so have you. Despite the grief and whingeing you may have to suffer throughout a game, it only takes one player to come up later and thank you for a good game. If you are really lucky you might get two.

Robert Burns
15-03-04, 23:03
Our School games are classed at L90 which basically means no level associated

Simon Thomas
14-09-04, 15:09
Deeps gave a clear outline of what the new system means - thanks.
It is there to get a more accurate correlation between referees and games both for safety / duty of care and referee development.
Robert Burns estimates are close but a little too generous, & not fully in-line with RFU advisements. A B1 is level 5 and maybe 6, a B2 is level 6 or 7, a B3 8 or 9 and so on. The old grades gave us more flexibility for appointment, but the new levels do allow greater consistency.
As referees we should set our goals, our expectations and these grade levels help us do that - we will not all become Panel Refs (or want to be) !

Sorry to drag up an old thread but there were some misconceptions :

1. Levels should replace grades in all Societies this season 2004-2005 - we were quick to do it in Hampshire last season.
2. The grade level of referee is the highest game he may be appointed at e.g. level 6 ref, does London 2 games and below. Rising referees can be appointed one level above their grade level for development purposes, but never 3 levels !!!
3. The game level is only a guide to the Appointers, and can be changed
a) local derbies (IOW v Sandown, Fordingbridge v Ringwood, Gosport v Portsmouth) or teams 'with a reputation' may be raised one or even two levels
b) poorly supported clubs 2nds / 3rds may be dropped more than 3 / 5 levels (hence we do have a level 16 in Hampshire but I am not saying which club or team !)
c) later rounds of the County Cup have levels increased to reflect that stage.
4. All society referees should receive written notification of their grade level each season, and if it is up or down graded during the season (depends on grading policy of each Society). I can't believe any Society Referee doesn't know their grade, or their Society - as you said Robert, slightly worrying !
5. Schools 1st XV, 6th Form Colleges and Colts sides are usually level 9, but specific matches may be up or down - e.g. Wellington v Millfield with liberal numbers of Schools Internationals is more likely a 7 ! Robert - I know London use the same schools 1st XV level 9 as Hampshire - I think L90 was a typo !!!!
6. All Society Appointers are very careful with youth rugby to ensure not just the right level referee is appointed, but that the correct character too. What is crazy is that if no Society referee of the right level is available the game may be covered by a club ref who has only NFC pass and never been assessed.
7. Didds - the Hampshire / Dorset&Wilts levels issue is nothing to do with referees or their levels, but that RFU in London&SE group put in an extra level at London4 (SW, SE, NE and NW), and that we go down to Hampshire 3 - as do Middlesex/Herts and Surrey ! If you ask the D&W Appointer I think you will find this is all taken into account when appointing referees. BTW Andover are level 7 in London SW3 (relegated last year from London 2S) and Hampshire 1 is level 9. When going on exchange to Somerset / Bristol / Devon I have found the levels of match equitable for example between SW Southern Counties and London SW3 and top of London SW4.
8. Whether a referee covers games at his level or below will depend on the appointments and development policy of his society, how many clubs and therefore matches his county has at each level (London is unique in this having so many matches at every level from 6 down - e.g. in Hampshire we have two level 6 clubs only (Portsmouth and Gosport) and no 2nd XV of National 2 clubs).
Any Hampshire Refs unsure of matters, please let me know directly.

Robert Burns
24-09-04, 22:09
Simon,

Sorry for the delay, been away this week.

Thanks for your insight into the new grading, despite having it explained to me many times, I have still yet to see anything in writing or on a website.

The level 90 was actually not a typo, all schools games are given as Level 90 in London (and I know it still is as I have one on my appointments sheet for the end of this month). I don't know why it is, so can't enlighten anymore than that.

I am now level 10+1. I gather then this means I will normally do level 10 games, but can if required do level 9, or do I have that wrong?

I have now updated the grading part of the site, so those whose garde is not shown under their names, can you please go into your user control panel, and enter the information in your profile page.

tcooper
17-03-05, 11:03
Hi I started refereeing last season. I started at the old C3. I was assessed towards the end of last season and am now Level 12. I have been allocated Level 11 games and have stepped in at the last minute to do Level 10. I understood that I could only ref two grades up?

OB..
17-03-05, 15:03
As I understand it, you can be officially appointed to games 2 levels above your own, but should not volunteer.

Simon Griffiths
17-03-05, 19:03
That's certainly the case where we are OB.

In Gloucester & District, (and I believe everywhere else due to legal ...) you are only allowed to referee 2 levels above your grade (though interestingly enough, I've been appointed to one 3 levels above!). Plus, this is only with/by aggreement of the committee.
This is generally used if:
a) There simply aren't enough referees.
b) The committee want to see if you're ready for promotion.
c) The appointments secretary thinks your fairly good.

OB..
17-03-05, 22:03
Simon - (a) and (b), yes. I shudder a little at (c) ;)

Simon Griffiths
17-03-05, 23:03
All meant in jest. Just I'm still at the bottom, a year after I passed the county badge exam just because I've only been refereeing adult rugby for 6 months.

I'll stop digging now! ;)

Robert Burns
17-03-05, 23:03
If they allow you to referee above your level shouldn't you be a 12+1 (to level 1 higher) or 12+2 (if they think your capable of doing 2 higher?)

Anyone on a grading panel can confirm/deny this?

Simon Thomas
18-03-05, 10:03
It is RFU RFRU (Rugby Union Referees Union) policy that no referee shall cover a game more than two levels above their grading. At the end of the day it is down to liabilty and insurance issues.
All Societies and Federations have a 'duty of care' to appoint capable, trained, experienced referees to matches. Unless involved you would be amazed at how much work is involved !
I know London operate the +1 and +2 system, and other Societies use a star system. We in Hampshire made a Committee decision that we would only appoint one grade up, and only for developing referees.
This is easy enough at levels 5-9, as the matches are mostly 1st XV and known standards, but it does get a progressively bigger jump in standard of play and referee challenge the higher you go, especially in management and speed of decison making.
Where problems can arise is at 10 and below, especially with 2nd and 3rd XV matches, where one week it could be a level 12 and then the next week they play like a level 10 !
I wasn't aware of how complex the job is for appointments sec, re-appointments (nightmare job !), and also how much time is spent on gradings until I joined the committee and this year became Chairman.

Specific response to Simon Griffiths points :

a) There simply aren't enough referees.
HRURS would prefer the match to be postponed, than appoint someone not capable or of a level too low
b) The committee want to see if you're ready for promotion.
Yes very much so, and get cards and hopefully a coaching report, and this will include in county and exchange matches as you progress
c) The appointments secretary has a different view of your abilities to others on the grading panel.
That's life and how all volunteer organisations work. I wasn't aware of how complex the job is for appointments sec, re-appointments (nightmare job !), and also how much time is spent on gradings until I joined committee and this year became Chairman. But Appt Sec is 'king', and will appoint as he sees fit. Ours is more than happy to discuss with members, and uses the Grading Committee list as his starting point !

Mike Whittaker
21-04-05, 09:04
The system seems to work well for us in Hampshire Simon, but I would add that it does need a committee who are 'in touch' eg. where the chairman does both refereeing and assessing, and where the appointments secretary also knows what he is doing and consults the right people. In this way it is possible to get the best out of the system and out of the referees, however constraining some of them feel it is.

Just a point on complexity of appointments.... recently watched a level 9 club second XV beat a level 6 club second XV quite comfortably. The developing level 10 ref who handled it did a very good job. A very sound appointment and one that could easily have gone wrong!

baas
16-05-05, 22:05
just athought.why not ask societies that are "next door" as this might make it easier.

Robert Burns
17-05-05, 08:05
Welcome to the Forums Baas.

If you have an image of the Staines Society image I can add it to the Avatars list if you like. Do you have a website yet?

churchie
17-05-05, 14:05
May be of interest to you guys.

In Australia, our system is completely different. To start reffing, you do a Level 1 course, which is a day of bookwork/videos/discussion etc, a take-home law exam, and being observed reffing 5 games. After this is Level 2, which you are eligible for after 20 games, and it has more advanced stuff in the course, and a Level 2 law exam. Level 3 is by invitation from the ARU, and is for refs who are seen to have a future in the game at a representative level. This is a year-long program with camps and projects etc.

Also have Level 1 & 2 TJ, Level 1, 2 & 3 Ref Coach, and Level 1, 2 & 3 Coaching

I'm currently a Level 1 Ref, with my level 2 course coming up soon. There is no limit to what the local association can appoint us to. E.g. Level 1 ref can referee 1st grade no problem (as long as they're good enough)

Cheers
Churchie

baas
25-06-05, 06:06
i am just getting used to using computer!!LOL.
i will as soon as i get a family member,one of the kids,to do it for me.

Robert Burns
25-06-05, 10:06
Nice to actually know how the Australian system works, thanks Churchie.

No worries Baas, whenever you can.

Simon Thomas
25-06-05, 11:06
Baas

We share a lot with our neighbouring Societies, although the size of Hampshire means it is over an hour to drive top to bottom or east to west.

Like all Society's we are part of a Federation (in our case Southern), whose development squad is the stepping stone to DW group and then National Panel.
So within that there is centralised grading standards within the four Federated County Societies. Also we exchange both referees and advisors elsewhere in England (as does everyone else) to try and get national level consistency.
Additionally conferences / training meetings are held for advisors and Society Managers at Divisional and National levels.

martin144
05-07-05, 16:07
In East Mids we moved onto levels last year rather than B or C grades and it was an upheaval but also very useful - it makes sense to both refs and clubs - both are clearer about how the games match the grade of the ref. I didn't fully understand Robert's explanation but if he's right London Soc are lucky to have L5 ref regularly reffing at L8 or below - our higher level guys are always too thin on the ground!

Re how to confirm your grade - it feels like poor admin on the part of your society - I get a letter at the start of every season from East Mids confirming my grade - new refs get it as soon as accepted as a member, plus a letter each time your are promoted.

Martin

OB..
06-07-05, 09:07
One of the featrues of the old system was that from C1 to B3 was a significant jump, requiring special effort. The new system has lost that. To that extent I think I preferred the old system, but I wouldn't fight too strongly over it.

Robert Burns
06-07-05, 12:07
In East Mids we moved onto levels last year rather than B or C grades and it was an upheaval but also very useful - it makes sense to both refs and clubs - both are clearer about how the games match the grade of the ref. I didn't fully understand Robert's explanation but if he's right London Soc are lucky to have L5 ref regularly reffing at L8 or below - our higher level guys are always too thin on the ground!

Re how to confirm your grade - it feels like poor admin on the part of your society - I get a letter at the start of every season from East Mids confirming my grade - new refs get it as soon as accepted as a member, plus a letter each time your are promoted.

Martin
Martin,

welcome to the forums, The L5 refs always AFAIK referee at London 1, however, L6 and below can have a nice variety of L6-L10 depending on the games available that week.