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speedy
10-03-07, 21:03
This happened today. Red defending in 22 when red player kicks across field, forward and high from a position at about the 5 metre line. The wind is against red and the ball is blown back over the try line and is caught by a red player who touches down.

I imediately blew called 22 drop out to the anger of blacks who want a 5 metre scrum black put in.

I hold my line and scrum continues... after the game I read the laws. It states that if a player takes a ball back or passes it back then a 5 metre scrum is awarded but does not mention the kick senario... only similar senario is from the kick off if the ball is kicked past the 10 metres then blown back ...play on.

A clarification would be nice on this one!

Thanks a lot

Robert Burns
10-03-07, 21:03
I would say you would have been right either way, same as if a player passes the ball back but the wind then blows it forward, it's not a forward pass.

I would say red didn't deliberatly take it into their in goal and so the 22 was ok.
but a 5m scrum probably would have not had many arguements either probably.

SimonSmith
10-03-07, 23:03
For my money, 5m scrum.

A dreadful windy day affects all areas of play. Red could have kicked lower and closer to touch.

I look on this as a botched kick, in the same way as if Red had sliced it into touch in goal.

Black should have got possession somehow - if Red had gone into touch they would have the throw in at the line out.

I'd be interested to know how you justify Black not getting the possession somehow.

Dixie
10-03-07, 23:03
I agree with Simon. The basic principle is that you look to see who was responsible for the ball going into in-goal. I don't think you can argue that in this case it was the wind. Red played it into touch; when they touch down, 5m scrum

Account Deleted
10-03-07, 23:03
I'd go for the scrum 5. The kick caused (took the ball into) the ball to go into in goal.

In the kick off scenario the player caused the ball to travel the required distance BEFORE it came back. Also with the pass the ball went back first so the Law was complied with.

A few years ago I saw a ball thrown into a line out by the defending side into a line out on their 5 metre line (they were playing into a fierce wind). The ball travelled down the middle of the line until it was passed the number 2 jumper. A massive gust of wind took the ball and it flew toward the defenders dead ball line. It was caught by the scrum half! The ref blew for "Not Straight"

OB..
10-03-07, 23:03
The wording of 22.7 (d) is "If a defending player threw or took the ball into the in-goal, ..."

It doesn't say what should happen in the case of a kick, but IMHO the sensible line to take is that this is intended to cover any situation where the defence caused the ball to go into in-goal. It was a miskick, but nonetheless it was done by the defender, so 5m scrum.

speedy
11-03-07, 11:03
Fellas ... the fact that I felt bothered enough to check the laws in the changing room was a indication to the fact that I doubted my first decission. The ball did go forward but was blown back a good 10 metres.

If this ever happens again I will indeed go for the 5m scrum.

Thanks alot.

Simon Thomas
11-03-07, 12:03
I would feel most comfortable with awarding a 5m scrum in these circumstances.

mkottke
12-03-07, 23:03
Same concept when a player kicks from the deep in their territory and having the wind carry the ball through the opposing dead ball line, which would result in a drop out or a scrum at the kick. By all means on a calm day the kick probably would have never made reached the opposing 22, but with the wind the ball sailed away. Same concept, the wind caused the ball to go past the dead ball line, but the results are still the same.
Glad you refered back to the law book and reeducated yourself.

This happened to me last week on a very windy day, resuting with a scrum to blue at the 5m line from a red kick. Players are responsible for knowing the field conditions and how they effect play.

-Mark

Davet
13-03-07, 01:03
Just a late night thought caused by the above.

Very strong wind blowing diagonally down the pitch. Kicker, from the field of play, lines up a kick at goal, he is into the wind and expects it to push ball back accross the face of goal. So he aims well outside the far upright, to let it be blown onto the right course.

Ball actually passes outside the upright - he has marginally overcompensated.

But the wind does take the ball and actually drives it back - taking it through the uprights, and over the crossbar; but from the "wrong" direction?

Have fun.

Robert Burns
13-03-07, 16:03
lol.

My addition was going to be If a kick off is taken and the ball crosses the 10m line but is then blown back into the kickers half, would you give the opposition the options? I wouldn't play on, it went over the line.

If you kicked at goal and it went through the posts and got blown back, would you disallow the kick? No, it went over the bar, kick is successful.

If a player passes the ball clearly backwards and the wind blows it forward mid flight do you call knock on? No, play on.

So whilst in the eyes of the perfect game this would be a 5m scrum, which no one would argue with, I think the uniqueness of the sittuation would also give the referee the perfect opportunity to call the 22m.

I do agree though that a 5m scrum would probably sit more comfortably on my concience.

As for DaveT's scenario, no biscuit from me, has to go over the bar in the correct direction first time, what it does after, I don't give a monkeys.

Davet
13-03-07, 16:03
Ah - but Rob; the law does not specify from which direction.

It stipulates merely that the ball must go over the crossbar, and that the kick shall be taken from within the field of play.

Both conditions are met.

speedy
13-03-07, 23:03
Lol Nice one fellas

Deeps
14-03-07, 01:03
Ah - but Rob; the law does not specify from which direction.

It stipulates merely that the ball must go over the crossbar, and that the kick shall be taken from within the field of play.

Both conditions are met.

Well, when that happens we can discuss it then; I have to shoot down a few flying pigs first.

As to the original scenario, there really should be no doubt at all. Who was responsible for taking the ball into in goal before it was made dead? Was it Black? No, then how can it possibly be a 22m drop out? Are we feeling sorry for the defenders again I wonder?

The Red kicker made an error, he failed to read the conditions properly and this resulted directly in the ball going into the in goal area where one of his team mates touched it down. De facto, scrum 5 to Black.

Dave Pulley
14-03-07, 09:03
5 metre scrum-Black team to put in.

Robert Burns
14-03-07, 18:03
Sometimes it's the Forum Admin's job to create debate remember ;) :rolleyes:

Davet
15-03-07, 14:03
Deeps you are of course quite right. It is a highly unlikely scenario.

But, why not be a boy scout - "Be Prepared".

Go on - would you give the points or not....?

Just as a hypothetical...

Dixie
15-03-07, 15:03
Deeps you are of course quite right. It is a highly unlikely scenario. But, why not be a boy scout - "Be Prepared". Go on - would you give the points or not....? Just as a hypothetical...

OK - I'll bite. I wouldn't give the points. If it happened from a PK or dropped goal, play on as the ball is now back in play. At a conversion - no additional points. In cases such as this, where the law is open to interpretation, the line of least resistance is usually to be preferred. In my view, that normally means going with what most people would expect in the absence of a law book.

SimonSmith
15-03-07, 15:03
Which is great - until the coach asks you in the bar why you didn't give it.

I'd hate for that to be my defence!

Robert Burns
15-03-07, 16:03
You kick it the other way in 7's!

But no, it must cross the bar in the direction kicked, not only on a freak blowback.

SimonSmith
15-03-07, 16:03
Go on Robert, cite law!

Coler
15-03-07, 17:03
9.A.2 (b) Kick at Goal - Special Circumstances

If the ball has crossed the bar a Goal is scored, even if the wind blows it back into the field of play

........sorry to butt in - I think this applies to all kicks at goal be they DG, PK or Conversion.

OB..
15-03-07, 18:03
You kick it the other way in 7's!
Not according to the Sevens Variations.

OB..
15-03-07, 19:03
Goal: A player scores a goal by kicking the ball over an opponents’ cross bar and between the goal posts from the field of play, by a place kick or drop-kick.

I think the common sense view is that it would not be a goal. I would justify this in law by pointing out that the phrase "from the field of play" denotes a direction, not a starting point.

SimonSmith
15-03-07, 20:03
That's the common sense answer.

The pedant's answer is that the law says where the kick must be made - not whence it crosses the bar!

speedy
15-03-07, 20:03
LOL...never saw where this would go when I posted it!!!

Deeps
16-03-07, 12:03
...freak blowback.

I am still struggling with this concept and shall watch carefully for any occurrences next week on Wimbledon Common where local competition rules allow kicks to be made in either direction.

Robert Burns
16-03-07, 12:03
Wouldn't get too picky about it, lol.

See you Monday guys.

OB..
16-03-07, 13:03
The pedant's answer is that the law says where the kick must be made - not whence it crosses the bar!
No. The law is ambiguous. My interpretation is perfectly valid.

tim White
16-03-07, 13:03
I would not award a goal by the following rationale:

Fact: I did not ,and will not, award a goal under such circumstances.

The refereee is sole judge of fact, therefore no goal.

Time to move on I think.