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View Full Version : advantage in-goal - whatwould you give?



Greg Collins
19-03-07, 14:03
The scenario: two fairly closely matched teams playing 10-a-side, both sides have shown a tendency to run the ball from their own goal line, scrums are uncontested due to lack of front row players, both sides have won several line outs on the oppositions throw-in.

Yellow FH collects ball from SH on edge of Red 22 beats two players and runs in goal. As he bends down to ground the ball he throws it forward, ball doesn't go dead but rolls to a halt. Red 'winger' picks it up and starts running diagonally across the in-goal area but before he crosses the goal line into the field of play he checks his run* and grounds the ball.

Scrum 5 Red (defending) put in or 22 drop to Red? 22.15 says 'all infringements in the in-goal are treated as if they had taken place in the field of play. A knock-on or throw-forward in the in-goal reuslts in a 5 metre scrum, oppositie the place of the infringement'

*afterwards Red 'winger' admitted to his team mates that he couldn't face the long sprint to score at the other end....!

I reasoned, as well as my oxygen starved brain would allow, "Yellow knock on/throw forward, let's wait a second and see what red do as they've been countering from deep so called 'advantage red'" If Red had stayed put, or run into his 22, and then kicked from in-goal and made touch Red would have gained ground with a good chance of winning the ball at the line out - which to me would have been a clear advantage.

I think on reflection I was wrong to give the drop out but should have given a red scrum.... opting to touch down was red's second bite at the cherry and they wasted their advantage in so doing so now I think I should have said 'No advantage, we'll take the original offence, scrum 5, red ball'

What do others think?

Pablo
19-03-07, 14:03
Nothing wrong with the advantage part of this scenario. However, as you suspect, a red scrum on the 5 would have been the correct decision after the touchdown. See Law 22.7 (a) and (b) for corroboration.

Dixie
19-03-07, 14:03
Agree with Pablo. Though I don't suppose you had too many arguments from yellow about the 22 decision.

ex-lucy
19-03-07, 15:03
i would have given a 22m drop out no matter what.
I cant see what advantage can be used up while play is beyond the try line. Unless play comes over the try line, into the 22m, I cant see any advantage gained.

SimonSmith
19-03-07, 15:03
Can you justify the 22m in law?

"cos Pablo is right according to the law book. A 22m is a specified restart in specific circumstances. You can't use it as a better version of advantage. To use your premise, why not restart with a lineout if that constitutes a better advantage?

ex-lucy
19-03-07, 15:03
yes.... i take that back. i misread the original scenario. Too quick with the whistle there!!

Gareth-Lee Smith
19-03-07, 18:03
I can't find my law book at the moment (and don't have the time to find it online) but isn't there mention of the need for a defender to ground the ball immediately?

PaulDG
19-03-07, 19:03
I can't find my law book at the moment (and don't have the time to find it online) but isn't there mention of the need for a defender to ground the ball immediately?

No. All that matters is who took the ball into goal - in this case it was the attackers, hence the confusion about the possibility of a 22 vs the scrum for the knock-on.

OB..
19-03-07, 19:03
I can't find my law book at the moment (and don't have the time to find it online) but isn't there mention of the need for a defender to ground the ball immediately?
You are thinking of the situation when the ball is kicked into in-goal from a kick-off.

In this case the law prescribes a defensive 5m scrum, and they cannot get round it by running about in in-goal for a bit.

Gareth-Lee Smith
19-03-07, 19:03
Sorted then :)

Greg Collins
19-03-07, 22:03
In this case the law prescribes a defensive 5m scrum, and they cannot get round it by running about in in-goal for a bit.

...but they could legitimately get round the prescription by taking the offered advantage and kicking tactically or for touch or running the ball out, yes?

My sense (but what do I know, hence the reflection and subsequent decision?) would be if they had run it out or kicked downfield, or kicked for touch, they would have had a clear and real advantage by gaining ground so play on it is until it becomes clear if they get an advantage....

...but a newbie I find a huge part of the challenge is having played advantage deciding when advantage is over. Say Red kicked for touch, sliced it, and it went into touch 2m from their goal line. They end up facing a line out 5m with Yellow put in - my guts says they've taken the opportunity presented by the advantage law by kicking but their poor execution has let them down - tough.

I know one thing, as a player I had a very grudging respect for the man in the middle, as a non-player & spectator I had the usual contempt for him, but know I'm there myself all I can say to you guys, esp. at the faster fitter levels 100% respect.

OB..
19-03-07, 22:03
The rule of thumb for advantage over: would the team reasonably expect (not hope) to do any better if you went back?

For a scrum, they would expect clean possession, but not necessarily any gain in ground. They would have time to kick, but could still kick badly. If they kicked badly during advantage, unless because of pressure due to the infringement, play on. You do not need to wait to see if the kick is good or not.

For a penalty, they expect a significant gain in ground via a kick to touch and possession at the lineout. If within kicking distance they expect to score. If they choose to kick, you wait to see if the kick is better than their reasonable expectation.

In this case, a kick from a 5 metre scrum would be taken from in in-goal anyway, so a bad kick ( unless under undue pressure) is just that - a bad kick. Play on.

madref
20-03-07, 10:03
Hi

I would given 5m scrum to Red no advantage has come from the knock on.

He has tried to run out and decided not to, what would you have done if he had fumbled the ball in the field of play accidently of course and it went forward ?

David

Greg Collins
20-03-07, 21:03
Hi

I would given 5m scrum to Red no advantage has come from the knock on.

He has tried to run out and decided not to, what would you have done if he had fumbled the ball in the field of play accidently of course and it went forward ?

David

It was thinking along those lines which made me realise I had probably called it wrong. Had that happened then "No advantage from Yellow's knock on, Scrum 5, Red put in" would be a no-brainer.

Emmet Murphy
20-03-07, 23:03
If within kicking distance they expect to score. If they choose to kick, you wait to see if the kick is better than their reasonable expectation.

I've seen on TV a few occasions where a team will be attacking in their opponents 22 with a penalty advantage. Someone attempts a dropped goal and as soon as the ball leaves his boot the ref calls advantage over regardless of whether or not it is successful. I'm still trying to get my head round the advantage law ... to me that seems unfair because of the reasons OB outlined above - what do others think?

OB..
21-03-07, 01:03
Emmet - that sounds to me very much like scrum advantage.

Emmet Murphy
21-03-07, 09:03
I have seen it - albeit not very often - where penalty advantage was being played ... seemed very harsh!

beckett50
21-03-07, 10:03
I'm still trying to get my head round the advantage law ... to me that seems unfair because of the reasons OB outlined above - what do others think?

So I was once told....

Back when rugby was first played the referee, or umpire, used to place himself on half-way and sit on a shooting stick. The team captains used to call for advantage when the opposition offended and the referee thus awarded, until in his eyes the advantage had been played.

The point of this tale? Put yourself in the position of the non-offending captain. What would he feel constitutes clear advantage from the situation. Apart from youth level where I advocate playing advantage for as long as possible, you should look at advantage in 4 ways.

1. Territorial
2. Tactical
3. Where the offence occured, ie red zone, or inside defenders 22
4. Penalty or scrum offence.

IMHO for a PK offence in the Red Zone you would look to play a long advantage and if someone opts for the drop goal wait and see if ot goes over before calling "advantage over!".

Likewise, attacking team PK inside oppo 22m would you (as the skipper) want advantage or do you just want to clear your lines and re-group?

The nice thing about the advantage Law is that we all interpret it slightly differently, but whithin the LotG.