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madref
17-05-05, 14:05
Hello All

After the lineout thread about who to penalise a couple of things for people to think about. Not looking for a right or wrong just a general discussion.

1. Blue attacking red defending inside reds 22, red 7 (always a flanker!) comes in from the side of a maul (off side) and stops blue making the pass. The pass which would have been made to a faster winger who would have scored. Blue didn't like this and punched the red player. The red player was daised fell to the gound and had a cut under his eye.

What is the decision.

2. Players keep telling you sir he is holding on etc.. both teams. You have a word with both captains telling them you will referee the game not the players. Red are atacking blue defending, blue inside reds 22. Blue holding on in a tackle you are playing advantage RED shouts Sir he is not releasing are you blind.

What is the decision.

3. Lineout ball thrown in by red not straight with out blue contesting the ball, blue players say we will have the scrum sir before you have blown the whistle remember you have told them let you referee it !

What is the decision.

Something I do struggle with and is letting me down a bit is back chat. I tend to have a good start to a game. The I have 10 minutes of players questioning my decsions. Penalties (yellow cards) follow. I have 50 minutes of good rugby then when players get tired chat starts again. Some advise on this would be welcome.

David

Robert Burns
17-05-05, 15:05
Hello All

After the lineout thread about who to penalise a couple of things for people to think about. Not looking for a right or wrong just a general discussion.

[QUOTE=madref]1. Blue attacking red defending inside reds 22, red 7 (always a flanker!) comes in from the side of a maul (off side) and stops blue making the pass. The pass which would have been made to a faster winger who would have scored. Blue didn't like this and punched the red player. The red player was daised fell to the gound and had a cut under his eye.

What is the decision.

Loud blast on whistle, pull captains and both players in, Tell red player he was offside and that if he puts himself in that position again you will deal with it more harshly. tell him to go away. Tell blue captain his scrum half's actions were completely unacceptable and that he will be taking no further part in this game, RED CARD, Restart with Penalty to red because of blue retaliation.


2. Players keep telling you sir he is holding on etc.. both teams. You have a word with both captains telling them you will referee the game not the players. Red are atacking blue defending, blue inside reds 22. Blue holding on in a tackle you are playing advantage RED shouts Sir he is not releasing are you blind.

What is the decision.

Loud blast on whistle, pull in player concerned and captain, tell captain that advantage was being played to your own team but due to his players inability to look before he talks it is now a Penalty to Blue. Disent.


3. Lineout ball thrown in by red not straight with out blue contesting the ball, blue players say we will have the scrum sir before you have blown the whistle remember you have told them let you referee it !

What is the decision.

Carry on playing advantage, if ball went on red side, blow quick tell players to wait for the whistle and go with the scrum. If ball went blue side blow whistle give the scrum, when the complain about the lack of advantage explain that their players requested the scrum instead, if they want advantage they should have played it not asked for the scrum.


Something I do struggle with and is letting me down a bit is back chat. I tend to have a good start to a game. The I have 10 minutes of players questioning my decsions. Penalties (yellow cards) follow. I have 50 minutes of good rugby then when players get tired chat starts again. Some advise on this would be welcome.

David

I get this too David, though I believe I am improving on it, I now request all communication comes through the pack leader or captain, basically ignore the others, if they get the hump penalise them telling the captain why.

SimonSmith
17-05-05, 15:05
Hello All

After the lineout thread about who to penalise a couple of things for people to think about. Not looking for a right or wrong just a general discussion.

1. Blue attacking red defending inside reds 22, red 7 (always a flanker!) comes in from the side of a maul (off side) and stops blue making the pass. The pass which would have been made to a faster winger who would have scored. Blue didn't like this and punched the red player. The red player was daised fell to the gound and had a cut under his eye.

What is the decision.

Foul play nearly always trumps the technical offence. From a management standpoint, you fisrt penalize the "coming in at the side." You then whistle again, and call over the Blue captain and explain that he had the penalty, but you're reversing for the foul play. It lets him know that you are catching the technical issues, and that you won't stand for foul play. Up to you on cards.


2. Players keep telling you sir he is holding on etc.. both teams. You have a word with both captains telling them you will referee the game not the players. Red are atacking blue defending, blue inside reds 22. Blue holding on in a tackle you are playing advantage RED shouts Sir he is not releasing are you blind.

What is the decision.

So, that's trickier. My assumptions here are that this is a niggly game, and that there is a constant management challenge, and that you were quite explicit to the captains, letting them know that penalties for chat were an option. In that case, penalty for holding on, then call the Red captain and tell him you're reversing it.
The debate is whether the chat is a worse offence than the holding on, but I think that if you allow the back chat, you're going to be making the management challenge so much tougher for yourself later in the game. Of course, depending on what else has happened in the game, nothing to stop you carding either or both players.....


3. Lineout ball thrown in by red not straight with out blue contesting the ball, blue players say we will have the scrum sir before you have blown the whistle remember you have told them let you referee it !

What is the decision.

Hmmm. How not straight. By which I mean, I'm a little more relaxed about my definition of straight depending on whether or not there was competition for the ball.
Is this all in the same game? If it is, evil Simon would be tempted to let play contineu and tell the captain that when they start appealing for decisions, I'm going to go deaf; if it's a differently toned game, I'd be tempted to give the not straight and tell the players jokingly to "jeez, gimme a chance to get the whistle to my mouth fellas..."


Something I do struggle with and is letting me down a bit is back chat. I tend to have a good start to a game. The I have 10 minutes of players questioning my decsions. Penalties (yellow cards) follow. I have 50 minutes of good rugby then when players get tired chat starts again. Some advise on this would be welcome.
David

Cover the chat in the pre match. I'm still playing with my wording, but at the minute it's "no problem with chat fellas, but time and tone please. Let's keep it constructive and helpful. As soon as you start to tell me what I'm missing, that's not contructive or helpful and I won't like it. And if I don't like it, you certainly won't!" All said with a smile on my face.
Decision questioning can be symptomatic of other management issues. Do you come across as firm enough? I seem to have a reputation now as a nice guy with a shitty streak that you don't want to get out. The players seem to know that and allow for it. Constant communication helps; I try to use breakdowns and set pieces to communicate about what is and what isn't working. Let the captains know what you saw and didn't whistle for - "you did XXX - it wasn't material this time; next time it might be and I WILL whistle. Got it?" helps a lot as well.
Any chance that after the 50 minutes you're starting to get tired mentally as well and your management is slipping a little?
There is no one right way to manage the game and people, and each game is different to all the others. You have to work at finding a style that works for you and is natural. For God's sake don't try to be someone that you're not when you referee - players can spot a phony!

threegatesexpress
17-05-05, 16:05
1. Whistle, identify puncher and make a note, time off, check injured player. Let tempers cool. Speak to both captains about discipline. Call over player who retaliated, talk to his skipper (not player), decision is penalty for in at side, reversed for retaliation. Serious injury caused through retaliation, red card. Time on, signal your decisions, get on with the game.

2. Whistle. Blue tackle offence, playing advantage, red player then commits offence, so match stopped. I'd always try to avoid getting into the "shut up or else" position mentioned. In this scenario I think I'd be public about explaining that maybe the player on the ground is actually the one who is blind if he can't hear advatage being called and see my arm. After a word with the captain, I'd turn the penalty over and leave it to his teammates to punish him in the bar afterwards. Doubt I'd give a yellow for that kind of comment, depends how aggressive he is.

3. Let them play on until it becomes apparent there's no advantage, which would probably be about a millisecond in this case. General audible comment to the lineout players that they should play to the whistle.



I think handling back chat has to be a question of your own personal style. Some referees will use humour, some will use the cards, and worst of all some will ignore it and hope it goes away (it won't). Above all, don't take it personally; you're an impartial observer who is interpreting the Law book for the players. The law book tells you that its a penalty against a side that doesn't respect the referee. So award a penalty. If there's already a penalty against his side (often the case), take it forward 10m, and if they do it again, add another 10.

If you can identify the offender, call him over with his captain, ignore the player, speak only to the captain. His captain will remind him about his manners when they've had to hand the ball over to their opposition.

If you can't identify the player, then it gets a bit tougher. Speak to both captains outside of the earshot of other players. Make it absolutely clear that you will not tolerate any form of dissent, and ask them to speak to their players, but avoid giving an ultimatum so you can keep your options open. Give them time to call their players together and sort it out.

The constant niggly comments in matches seems to be more prevalent when you're still relatively inexperienced, or perhaps match rusty, and I don't think that it's just that more experienced referees know how to handle the situation better, although that must play a part. I've found that I make fewer mistakes as I progress, and the comments are almost non-existent after a couple of full seasons. Rugby players are like horses, which instinctively know when their rider is inexperienced or nervous; players pick that up too, and if they think they can get away with it they will try.

If you get comments based on players' poor knowledge of the Laws, speak to them after the game and put them right.

Finally, make sure you report any abuse back to your appointments secretary so that the situation can be monitored.

robertti
17-05-05, 16:05
I dont think there are clear cut answers to any of the above except Number one, they all depend more on the circumstances of the game and the interpretation of the referee. In a sense, within reason, there are no right and wrong answers. However this is what I would have done:


1. Blue attacking red defending inside reds 22, red 7 (always a flanker!) comes in from the side of a maul (off side) and stops blue making the pass. The pass which would have been made to a faster winger who would have scored. Blue didn't like this and punched the red player. The red player was daised fell to the gound and had a cut under his eye.

What is the decision.


Definately reverse penalty, word to captains and red/yellow card player (up to the referee).



2. Players keep telling you sir he is holding on etc.. both teams. You have a word with both captains telling them you will referee the game not the players. Red are atacking blue defending, blue inside reds 22. Blue holding on in a tackle you are playing advantage RED shouts Sir he is not releasing are you blind.

What is the decision.


This depends on the circumstances of the game. I personally don't see this as a serious enough offence to warrant the penalty being reversed. I not play any advantage, award the penalty to red but warn the captain that his players must keep quiet.



3. Lineout ball thrown in by red not straight with out blue contesting the ball, blue players say we will have the scrum sir before you have blown the whistle remember you have told them let you referee it !

What is the decision.


Obviously they have indicated to you they dont want to play the ball so theres no reason playing advantage; just blow it up and scrum it down with a blue ball. I mean they're not abusing you, just presumpting you. Nothing wrong here.




Something I do struggle with and is letting me down a bit is back chat. I tend to have a good start to a game. The I have 10 minutes of players questioning my decsions. Penalties (yellow cards) follow. I have 50 minutes of good rugby then when players get tired chat starts again. Some advise on this would be welcome.



I dont think there is one rule on how to deal with backchat. I suppose its a question of finding a middle ground between tolerating blatant derogatory abuse and being too 'precious' as a referee. General ongoing comments about what I should award I can tolerate and will generally ignore. If these start becoming repeated and frequent, then I ask the captains to let the players keep it too themselves and after that I start awarding penalties and cards. But blatant, personal attacks on the referee are a different thing alltogether and I will always at LEAST yellow card a player that has a personal go at me or any of my TJs.

Simon Griffiths
17-05-05, 18:05
1) Blow whistle very loud, as threegates... suggests separate the teams to allow them to cool down - note scrum-half's number (might not be 9). Call red and blue captains over plus red 7. Tell them that you will not accept any more penalty offences in the 'red zone' (i.e. 22). Tell red 7 to naff off (put it a little more politely though). Keep both captains there and call over blue 'retaliator' - give him a stern lecture, explain that retaliation is unacceptable ('Let me referee the game' etc.). I would say that as the player (red 7) was left in a bit of a state, it was a 'good' punch - probably red card (ref's decision, he had best knowledge of contexts etc.)

2) Were it not for the 'are you blind comment' I would simply give the PK to red for holding on and tell him to zip-it. As it was added, and you've already spoken to the captains about chatting I would reverse the decision immediately and speak to the captain and the player about the comment and remind the captain that he's already been spoken to about the chat. If you wanted you could yellow card him (the player, not the captain), but that would be too harsh! Personally I don't have this problem because my ears just turn off completely in open play so I can't hear a word that is said (unless there stood right next to me!). At stoppages I'll talk to people and can hear them.

3) See what advantage comes, if none, make a big point of asking the captain and then a quick wink in the 'scrum please' player's direction - just a little eager.

Last point - no comment (as I said, I get too engrossed in the play to hear what the players are saying). If there's something said at a stoppage I'll try and get in a witty reply which usually settles everyone and they ease off slightly.

didds
17-05-05, 18:05
1. Penalty reversed for retaliation... I had considered the PT followed by penalty on half way for the punch but IIRC such penalties can only be awarded (unless you are a 6N ref ;-) for foul play following the scoring of a try (?)

2. Penalise the blue player, card the red player.

3. either call the not straight as per the law book, or play on with the concept that blue had relinquished any "right" to the ball in the air. YC blue player for calling.

A coaches suggestion for back chat - YC everyone and anyone that indulges in genuine back chat - discipline is everything. Do distinguish between banter and back chat (unless the banter is barbed understandably). Reasonable benefits of doubt to captains and pack/backs leaders.

didds

Simon Griffiths
17-05-05, 18:05
didds, quite right in point 1, a PK on half-way would have required the try to have been scored already - not quite sure of guidlines on doing it after penalty tries though...

On point 3 however I think a YC would be extremely harsh (I will go with you for point 2) but it appears to be very much an over-eager comment rather than back-chat, as such.

OB..
17-05-05, 19:05
Where to start?! Maybe at the beginning

The problem is managing behaviour, and you start when you arrive - which is why you are always admonished to look the part. In your pre-match talk, make it quite clear that you will not tolerate unnecessary comments, and get the captain to accept.

During the game, escalate your reactions as slowly as you reasonably can: eg quiet reminder, loud reminder, get captain to remind players, stern lecture, penalties, yellow, red.

The individual situations quoted can be handled differently at different stages in this process.

1. If the illegality prevented a probable try, how about this? Award the penalty try. That was chronologically the first decision. The retaliation thus happened after the "score", so you can restart play with a penalty to Red from the halfway line. Card(s) as appropriate, depending on context and earlier play.

If it was not a penalty try, then as suggested, penalty to Blue, reversed for retaliation. Either player could be carded as appropriate in the context.

2. Red has clearly not taken on board your earlier efforts, and is now getting insulting. Time to move on to the next stage of escalation, and it is probably appropriate to leap to at least yellow (context again). Be aware that this restricts future decisions, so take the opportunity to read the riot act to the captains. Also remind the player when he comes back on.

Afterwards, ask yourself if you had made your requirements clear enough. Could you have done anything differently?

3. If you were going to blow for not straight, do so. Then stop play and remind Blue that they should keep quiet. Otherwise, let play continue, but at next stoppage, talk to Blue.

In both cases, the action you take against Blue depends on where you are in the escalation stakes. It does not sound like a case for a penalty, but you are the judge of that (in context).

Overall, I see no reason to be tolerant of comments. If nothing else, they tend to stir up the opposition and thus make life harder for you in other ways. And I fail to see how the players think they are of any value to them. They are playing rugby, not refereeing.

madref
18-05-05, 10:05
Hello Again

I will tell you what I did.

1. I awarded the penalty try, (to the disgust of the players, coach and spectators), I then checked the player who had been punched who was steaming the a try had been awarded. I called the red captain over told him why I had awarded the try as a certain try whould have been scored. He accepted this and I told him to calm his players down. I then called over the blue captain and told him why I was red carding his player. I then re started with a penalty. The spectators, coach and players now where most bemused but all felt was fair. They guy who punched got a 4 week ban from discipline committe. It was a level 10 game.

2. I told red he should look and listen as I had called advantage. I then told him penalty has been reversed for discent. Blue kicker kicked the ball 50 yards up the field and scored from the resulting line out. Justice or what! All the red players where livid with their player no more problems with chat after that.

3. Play on, told the captain if they are not contesting the line out as far as I am concerned play on. Why some teams do not contest the line outs I do not know.

Thanks for the advice on management, you all have some good points.

1. Looking the part - started doing this towards the end of last season always turning up in blazor and society tie. Sometimes I turned up smart but quite casual and I think I came accross as one of the players.

2. Inexperienced spotted think this is a good point this is my first season of refereeing, hopefully this will become a thing of the past next year.

3. Getting tired myself after 70 minutes think you may have a point there will have to work a bit hard on that fitness over the summer, also could be to do with not talking in enough water at half time next year I will talk my own water bottle with me and not rely on the teams.

4. Again I think I can be too nice come across as still playing rather than officiating.

What I didn't tell you all is the 2nd time I referee a team I get no back chat what soever only seams to be on first occasion.

Thanks again

David

Robert Burns
18-05-05, 11:05
On your point three, your fitness should be the same as a team 1 level above your highest possible game, so presently I am a 9+2 I should be as fit as a L6 team.

Always try to be the third man at breakdowns, and always be first at lineouts (bar the covering winger). This is the advice I always get, I think it's good.

madref
18-05-05, 12:05
Hi Robert

I am pretty fit at moment much fitter than my level so I keep being told.

Being first at lineouts well I remember a funny story one of our panel refs told me, he prided himself always being first at the line out. One line out he sprinted to got there turned round and saw 20 players brawling in the middle of the park! How why what happened he has not got a clue to this day !

He now says he is not always first there and has a good look over his should 2 or 3 times when jogging to the line out.

David

Robert Burns
18-05-05, 13:05
lol, the exceptions to help prove the rule, :D