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View Full Version : quick line out, diff ball, try awarded !!



ex-lucy
05-05-07, 15:05
Again, whilst watching Western Force v Blues last night.
Blues line out, taken quickly, by a lock to hooker, hooker sprints 25m or so to the try line untouched.
Ref asks TJ "was the line out taken with a diff ball?" "No."
Ref awards the try.
oh dear! How embarrassing for TJ and ref.
On the replay ... it is quite clear that a diff ball is handed to the Blues lock by a ball boy after wiping with a towel, which is then passed by the lock in to the hooker.
Ref = Kaplan ...

Ref: (d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. If, after it went to touch and was made dead, another ball is used, or if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in, then the quick throw-in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the line-out.

OB..
05-05-07, 16:05
The prime responsibility lies with the TJ, surely. The referee is dealing with on pitch matters.

Gareth-Lee Smith
05-05-07, 17:05
Now, say that the TJ was unsure and couldn't give a yes or no answer... what then?

Davet
05-05-07, 17:05
The ball was handed to the player - doesn't matter if its a different ball or the same one - the player dod not fetch it himself.

Gareth-Lee Smith
05-05-07, 18:05
Well-spotted, Davet.

Still, any clue to my scenario anybody?

PeterTC
05-05-07, 18:05
Now, say that the TJ was unsure and couldn't give a yes or no answer... what then?

Benefit of doubt side who took the positive action (that of the quick throw).

But let's just say that their TJing career isn't going to end up at soaring heights if they can't give an answer to what happened to the ball, seeing as it is one of their prime roles as defined in the LoTG with regards to touch. :p

Simon Thomas
06-05-07, 18:05
Basic TJ duty and at this level very poor indeed. His match report will have had a big minus on it !

peperami
07-05-07, 13:05
Again, whilst watching Western Force v Blues last night.
Blues line out, taken quickly, by a lock to hooker, hooker sprints 25m or so to the try line untouched.
Ref asks TJ "was the line out taken with a diff ball?" "No."
Ref awards the try.
oh dear! How embarrassing for TJ and ref.
On the replay ... it is quite clear that a diff ball is handed to the Blues lock by a ball boy after wiping with a towel, which is then passed by the lock in to the hooker.
Ref = Kaplan ...

Ref: (d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. If, after it went to touch and was made dead, another ball is used, or if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in, then the quick throw-in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the line-out.

This has been discussed on a mailing list I belong to and someone made an interesting point. If the lineout was formed i.e 2 people from either side the lock could use the new ball, throw to the hooker as long as it was straight and went 5 then play on.

Now I havent seen the tape so I cant say whether it happened like that.

Ben

OB..
07-05-07, 15:05
If the ref asked whether a different ball had been used, then he did not regard it as a normal line-out.

ex-lucy
08-05-07, 12:05
peperami

LAW 19.2 QUICK THROW IN
(c) A player must not take a quick throw in after the lineout has formed. If the player does, the quick throw in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the lineout.

I hope this was taken into consideration when discussing this issue ...

tim White
08-05-07, 16:05
Clearly it was, why else would JK ask about the ball?

QE2wgc
08-05-07, 16:05
Steve
The differnce would be between a quick thrown in and a quickly taken throw.

A quick throw in can be anywhere behind the line of touch to the goal line, and if the ball is touched by someone bar the person going to throw in it is then not allowed, also if the opposition and attacking side have two players at the place of touch then no quick throw.

But nothing to then stop a quickly taken throw?

Davet
09-05-07, 10:05
A quickly taken throw is fine.

So long as:
1) Line is formed (2 players from each side, either side of LoT, with a 1m gap)
2) If more non-throwing team, then they are given time to adjust numbers.
3) The throw is straight, between the inside shoulders.
4) Both sets of backs are back 10 from LoT

ex-lucy
09-05-07, 11:05
A quickly taken throw is fine.

So long as:
1) Line is formed (2 players from each side, either side of LoT, with a 1m gap)
2) If more non-throwing team, then they are given time to adjust numbers.
3) The throw is straight, between the inside shoulders.
4) Both sets of backs are back 10 from LoT

umm, if these criteria are all correct and present .. then it aint a 'quickly taken throw' any more ..it's a normal throw. Shirley?

I thought that we werent supposed to permit a quickly taken throw because of those criteria and thus for management reasons.

Robert Burns
09-05-07, 12:05
umm, if these criteria are all correct and present .. then it aint a 'quickly taken throw' any more ..it's a normal throw. Shirley?

I thought that we werent supposed to permit a quickly taken throw because of those criteria and thus for management reasons.
This is a major difference between northern hemisphere rugby and southern hemisphere rugby, In SH rugby a quickly taken throw is perfectly fine and allowed and the referee will not stop it.

In the NH we ste the gap etc to slow it down. Who is right? well that's another thread.

OB..
09-05-07, 12:05
There is a video clip of the incident here (http://www.sareferees.co.za/video/Quick_Throw_New_Small.wmv)

It was not a normal throw because the thrower was several metres away from the point being indicated by the TJ. A lineout does not seem to have been formed either.

It was therefore an attempt at a quick throw, and should have been disallowed.

Robert Burns
09-05-07, 12:05
The touch judge also had his arm out, which indicates that a quick throw can no longer be taken. But yet he allowed it.

OB..
09-05-07, 13:05
Robert -I think the "flag out = lineout formed" is only a convention, and not all TJs honour it?

Here is what the referee had to say (Question 2 (http://www.sareferees.co.za/referees_news/story_9507133812.php) )

2. Name: Julian Brink
Question: Why did you allow that try for Mealamu in Perth? It was easy to see that the proper ball was a long way away and if the linesman was asleep, you could overrule him, couldn't you?
Jonathan: Herewith account of event which took place at Subiaco last Friday night.
Force kick the ball out. as a result of the oval shape of the ground, the ball travels well over the advertising boards but not into the stands.
James Leckie puts his flag up to signal that the ball is out. I momentarily turn my back on the touch-line to check what is happening infield, as most of us do, and when I look back as I am approaching him to make the mark for the formal line-out, I see out of the corner of my vision that a Blues player is about to take a quick throw. I look at James, and as the throw is taken, he lowers his flag. Play continues. Blues score. I suspect the wrong ball has been used. I go over to him and ask whether he is happy that the correct ball has been used. he says Yes.
The Force object and I explain that because I did not see, I must go with the touch judge. This, by the way is no different from what happens in a foul play situation.
Principle 1: Once the ball goes out and the touch judge raises his flag, it is his duty to monitor all that goes on outside the field of play. There are often a multitude of things referees check for in the field, behind our backs. This has been encouraged ever since I started refereeing.
Principle 2: It states very clearly in law that if the wrong ball is used, the touch judge is to keep his flag raised.
James erred. He was not concentrating on his primary duty. He has acknowledged it and it is over. Unfortunately I have worn some of the abuse to come out of this. the usual Aussie abuse is not that unusual for me, just disappointing.
What is frustrating is that certain sectors of our media cant think for themselves, and simply jump on the bandwagon.
(If I err I accept responsibility. I did everything which could reasonably have been expected of me in that situation. If I had been STARING at the ball all the time, I perhaps could have saved the situation and my touch judge.)

Robert Burns
09-05-07, 13:05
that's fair enough.

ex-lucy
09-05-07, 18:05
I like Kaplan even more today.

Dixie
09-05-07, 18:05
May not endear him to his TJ, though. I fully accept the TJ was at fault, but it can be destructive in a team (of three) setting to publicly blame one member of the team in order to deflect misplaced attention from oneself.

Robert Burns
10-05-07, 09:05
As he said TJ admitted his mistake and that's the end of it, they made a cock up!

Issue over next please, lol.

BTW, as someone that didn't watch the game, did that try make a difference to the overall winners?

ex-lucy
10-05-07, 11:05
no, but it was the bonus point try which allowed Blues a better chance at obtaining a semi final place