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Robert Burns
28-01-04, 04:01
A recent game I refereed which was a few levels above my norm had one team trying a strange tactic.

What they would do is at the lineout a few of them would stand just outside the line, and then as the ball was thrown they would come in.

I was happy as the players were in the line when the ball was thrown in, but my assessor said he would have penalised them for not forming the lineout properly.

Anyone got any comments on this?

Everything went very well anyway and I got what I consider to be a great report out of it.

didds
28-01-04, 11:01
You wrote that at 03:28 am Robert? Are you an insomniac? ;-)

can't see the problem with it - as pong as they don;t expect you to penalise the oppo for numbers as a result (ie the oppo have hardly had an opportunbity to equal numbers up etc ...)

didds

Davet
28-01-04, 12:01
You wrote that at 03:28 am Robert? Are you an insomniac? ;-)

can't see the problem with it - as pong as they don;t expect you to penalise the oppo for numbers as a result (ie the oppo have hardly had an opportunbity to equal numbers up etc ...)

didds

Didds - I agree with you.

I was pre-season training with one of my local clubs, and they were practising a lineout where they gave the ball to the hooker, who stood on touchline, while the lineout forwards huddled and then some came in to the line, and others retired immediatly 10m back. as sson as those who were joining the line came upto the line the hooker threw in.

My opinion then was that they were OK, but would never get numbers given, and that some refs may not allow it.

Red Munster
28-01-04, 13:01
Didds - I agree with you.

I was pre-season training with one of my local clubs, and they were practising a lineout where they gave the ball to the hooker, who stood on touchline, while the lineout forwards huddled and then some came in to the line, and others retired immediatly 10m back. as sson as those who were joining the line came upto the line the hooker threw in.

My opinion then was that they were OK, but would never get numbers given, and that some refs may not allow it.

I think that's taking the piss. The other team has to be given time to adjust their numbers. And the team in possession is not allowed delay the formation of the lineout. I would freek kick them, speak to the captain and advise them that delaying the lineout for a huddle is not allowed. Also, anyone who approaches the lineout within 10 metres is deemed to be part of the lineout. They are obviously trying to put off the other team by their tactics, but is it in the spirit of the game?

Robert Burns
28-01-04, 23:01
The other team only needs time to adjust players if the throwing in team adds more players, doesn't say anything about taking players away.

In my scenario the line outs were full ones, and the players were just standing a step out of the line, and coming in as the ball was being thrown, so numbers were fine.

I still don't see much of a problem in this providing they don't impede jumpers/supported players by running in.

Robert Burns
29-01-04, 04:01
You wrote that at 03:28 am Robert? Are you an insomniac? ;-)

can't see the problem with it - as pong as they don;t expect you to penalise the oppo for numbers as a result (ie the oppo have hardly had an opportunbity to equal numbers up etc ...)

didds
Insomniac? No
Night Shift Worker: Yes
Father: Yes

So don't get as much sleep as I would like.

didds
29-01-04, 13:01
And the team in possession is not allowed delay the formation of the lineout.

So.... the "traditional" lineout consists of a forwards wandering genrallyb into two lines. the hooker wipes the ball on his shirt. Somebiody calls the l/o call... this is repeated once, maybe twice. Hooker looks at lineout, lifts ball, some body jumps, hooker throws. Bobs your uncle, 30 seconds.

The "walk in " lineout consists of the forwards wandering into a loose huddle while the oppo string themselves out traditionally and the hooker takes up his stance. the hooker wipes the ball on his shirt. The huddle has a quick chat and somebody makes a call for the hooker directly to him and he lifts the ball. The huddle walk into the line, hooker throws and jumper jumps.
Nellie's your aunty, 25 seconds.

How is that delaying anything in the grand scheme of things.

As mentioned earlier there's no way the oppo can be pinged for numbers in such scenarios so what's the problem?

It can't be any worse than this stupid and ridiculous chinese fire drill scenario whereby two nicely formed lines with a metre gap degenerates into a general melee somewhere in the gap, which has become about a foot at best and usually less.... but never gets pinged. At least it keeps the gaps and is "clean".


I would freek kick them, speak to the captain and advise them that delaying the lineout for a huddle is not allowed.

You'll equally penalise the oppo for taking ages to form their line because of stragglers and making their lineout call several times then?


Also, anyone who approaches the lineout within 10 metres is deemed to be part of the lineout. They are obviously trying to put off the other team by their tactics, but is it in the spirit of the game?

How is this "putting off" the opposition? Strikes me that this method actually in effect allows the oppo back row to be 10m from their flyhalf instead of possibly 20m! ie oppo l/o is full, No. 7 at the rear. 4 huddling players walk in, 3 walk away, ball is won by huddlers and off the top distributed to the fly-half eventually. Oppo no. 7 now can come from 10m from flyhalf. As opposed to traditionally set 4 man lineout with No. 7 (probably) standing 20m from the flyhalf. How does that place the oppo at a disadvantage?


Aren't we supposed to be rewarding positive play by the side that didn't prevent the breakdown in the game? ie didn't kick it out?

didds

Davet
29-01-04, 16:01
What they are actually trying to do is get the timing and the call spot on.

So they take 2 seconds to huddle and call to themselves, then come to line of touch and immediately throw the ball.

Yes it confuses the opposition, who may be expecting a few seconds delay. But surely sowing confusion among the opposition is a major part of the game?

They know they are sacrificing ANY chance of a FK for numbers, so it seems like a fair swap to me. Though I did point out to them that they may get a different response from another ref.

If you did object, the rather than FK at the first time of asking, simply tell them you want the opposition to have chance to balance numbers, and get them to throw again. If they do it a second time then FK.

Bryan
16-06-08, 22:06
I'm going to dig up a thread that is a few years old b/c the same thing happenned this past weekend, and I think I didn't manage it properly:

Blue, in forming the lineout would have a couple players in the line and a few more standing as recievers, as the lineout was forming. Then, all but one of the Blue players would step into the line (leaving ONE player as a reciever), and the throw-in would occur.

Under NO circumstances was a I going to FK anyone for numbers. In discussion with the Red coach after the game, he felt I could have managed it better. Apparently this occurred in the GP a while ago, and to counter this defending teams would step up alongside (and across) the line of touch to blatantly reduce space for the attackers who had recently entered the line.

I thought that the "no FK for numbers" was a sufficient deterrent, but Blue kept doing it all game long, but I couldn't see how I could have prevented this. Is it really delaying? Are Blue gaining any illegal advantage by doing this? Let's say they have a huddle beforehand (they may have on occassion, but mainly it was players loitering around the line of touch until the last minute).

It seems that their main objective was to confuse the opposition as to where the ball is going, but that just seems the same as swapping players in the lineout, and it didn't seem illegal. They were pretty quick about it anyways, so the timing was never an issue when compared to Red's traditional lineout forming.

What can I say, things come here a lot longer after they've been trialled in the Tier 1 nations...

-BA

KML1
16-06-08, 23:06
Leave it 6 weeks and no-one's going to have any probs at all!

Phil E
16-06-08, 23:06
The other team only needs time to adjust players if the throwing in team adds more players, doesn't say anything about taking players away.

I dont think thats correct since the opposition are allowed to have less players, but not more.

...and yes it does say about taking players away.

If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number
of players in the lineout, their opponents must be given a
reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to
satisfy this Law.

I may be misunderstanding this but the players (currently) are either in the linout or are 10m back, there is no in between. If they form a huddle before each lineout they should/could be pinged for delay of lineout which is a free kick offence.

When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of
touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who
approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of
either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a
position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.

Dickie E
17-06-08, 02:06
If it got to the point of being messy I'd blow time off and say "Blue please set your line" and once Red had the opportunity to get themselves organised, blow time on again. I wouldn't allow Blue to gain an advantage by deliberately causing confusion & chaos. I'll set the pace of the game when I think it's needed.

Simon Thomas
17-06-08, 10:06
As an assessor I am looking at your management of the line-out, to make it clean, a contest, with no delays and within the Laws.

As KML1 says the numbers will cease to be an issue, but the receiver differentiation at a miniumum 2m gap means I want to see a clear line formed, players in or out (and gone 10M) at time of formation.

Fully agree with Dickie E - stop teams messing about and trying to cause un-necessary confusion.

tim White
17-06-08, 10:06
Isn't there currently a line about any player approaching the line of touch is deemed to be a line out player, so is not leaving the lineout after that a FK offence? :nono: WHY ARE THEY DOING IT IF NOT TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE?:chin: I can live with all the legal stuff but to infringe laws AND gain an advantage??? I think I'd stop this dead and explain as above 'if your'e in, your'e in, and stay in!' otherwise I see no problem throwing in the ball as soon as the line is formed, and lots of reasons for encouraging it.:clap:

Phil E
17-06-08, 11:06
Isn't there currently a line about any player approaching the line of touch is deemed to be a line out player, so is not leaving the lineout after that a FK offence? :nono: WHY ARE THEY DOING IT IF NOT TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE?:chin: I can live with all the legal stuff but to infringe laws AND gain an advantage??? I think I'd stop this dead and explain as above 'if your'e in, your'e in, and stay in!' otherwise I see no problem throwing in the ball as soon as the line is formed, and lots of reasons for encouraging it.:clap:

Yes and No. You are right in your fist statement that anyone approaching the line is deemed to be part of the lineout and must remain part until the line is over. However (and this wont matter after Aug 1st) if the defenders put in 8 players, then the team to throw in come to the line with only 4, the defenders are allowed to remove players to match the numbers. They dont have to be 10m back when the ball is thrown as long as they continue to retreat without delay. Under the ELV's they can leave the extra players in.