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Bryan
04-07-05, 16:07
Here's what happened on the weekend:

Italian Fire Brigade (White) v. NSW Fire Department (Blue)

Blue not staying on their feet at the tackle and diving over the ball. Penalised right away (no advantage), and as white tap-and-go blue player then says "That's bollocks ref I was on my feet". I then signal advantage for White for dissent against blue. Advantage not gained so I march blue back another 10m from the first infringement.

Can I give advantage for dissent? Most refs will just march a team back 10m and give the penalty there, but in this case White had already taken the kick and played quickly so I thought advantage was in order. Dissent is not an area where advantage cannot be played, but my TJs thought it was hilarious that I said "Advantage White, Dissent 5 Blue" as they had never heard of advantage played off of dissent before...

any opinions welcomed
-Bryan
already over 100 posts...woohoo

Robert Burns
04-07-05, 16:07
I can't see why not, as play was already going on. good call by the sounds of it.

Simon Griffiths
04-07-05, 16:07
Yes, totally agree - perfectly legitimate (if slightly unorthodox). I'm sure a team would be very racked off if they'd taken the quick one and you marched the other team back 10m just as the team who's PK it was dived over in the corner. Pretty good call (provided you had a quick word with the necessary player at the next stoppage).

However, I do query why:
Advantage Blue, Dissent 5 White when you say it was blue that dived over then opened mouths... :p ;)

Bryan
04-07-05, 17:07
As you can see, i have made the necessary editing above!

However, there's something else I think I may have duffed up. If I awarded a penalty for diving over, then gave advantage for dissent, if advantage was not gained should I have marched them forward 10m? I know in the case of a team not retreating 10m at a penalty a further penalty is on the 10m line where the team should have retreated.

In this case, however, is a 10m gain in ground the right decision or should the mark be given where the infraction occurs?

-Bryan

madref
04-07-05, 18:07
Good Call.

But i think you should have gone back to here the offence took place.

David

OB..
04-07-05, 19:07
Law 21.7 []Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.

You have penalised Blue, White took the tap,and then Blue infringed again. The infringement was connected to the original offence, so I see no reason not to play advantage initially, with the option of calling play back and awarding the extra 10 metres.

When the law is imprecise, use Equity. Good decision IMHO.

Mike Whittaker
04-07-05, 19:07
Sounds like good man management to me.. The point had to be made, they talk then they walk!!

robertti
05-07-05, 04:07
Yeh Bryan no problems for the advantage for dissent. I just wonder how experienced your TJs are! I have done this a couple of times in the past as well, and while it is rare to play advantage for such an offence it is perfectly legitimate.

Simon Thomas
05-07-05, 15:07
Spot on Bryan - excellent management.

I have done the same myself in a Colts match - and as the player kept complaining, I kept walking past 10 paces - his skipper eventually shut him uo when I had got at least 20m and politely asked why I had gone past 10 - to which I replied I have only got little legs and had lost count due to his players continued dissent. He smiled knowingly !

ExHookah
13-07-05, 13:07
I had an incident in a tournament last weekend, not so much advantage related, but definitely dissent related.

Blue kicking conversion, kicker is doing his elaborate preparation, and 3 players from White step forward and ask if they can charge. I hold them back and tell them to wait, tell kicker to hurry up. Kicker then kicks (badly) and is easily charged down by White. Kicker then immediately starts berating me for allowing a charge, not allowing me the chance to even speak. Kicker escalates it by saying "Come on ref, you don't know what you're doing you f*cking c*nt".

Immediately whip out the yellow and send him to sit in the bin.

Question. Would you have gone further and given a red? I've asked a few refs, and they have said that a comment that is that offensive and directed right at me deserves a red. Agree?

Robert Burns
13-07-05, 13:07
Definetly, no chance of that guy getting back on the pitch and deserves a heafty ban from the game for his lack of respect for the officials.

ExHookah
13-07-05, 13:07
Thanks Robert, I'll definitely be looking to be harsher with my cards in the future.

Problem was that this guy was then on the sideline griping to his teammates and coaches about the fact that I had allowed a charge and didn't let him take the kick again, and totally ignored the fact that the guy was cursing in my face.

Follow up question. Could I have chucked him off the pitch, but allowed them to retake the kick, just with another kicker? Or does his dissent preclude the team from any further attempts at goal?

Robert Burns
13-07-05, 16:07
Hmm, Difficult one.

I would say that had the team charged early, and he then given his disent

Send Kicker off, allow team to take conversion (obvioulsy with another kicker and this time opposition cannot charge), restart play with a penalty from the kick off to the non disenting team.

Sound ok OB?

SimonSmith
13-07-05, 16:07
No brainer.
Red. That's not dissent, that's abuse!

Simon Griffiths
13-07-05, 17:07
Same comments from me:

For such a statement - to your face and 'about' you - I would certainly have red carded him. Then, depending upon his tone and/or remorse I would consider pushing the disciplinary panel for a severe ban. I can remember seeing a poster which showed that you can be banned for life for abuse of officials - in this case that would be extreme (reserved perhaps for physical assault as opposed to verbal).

I too would agree a PK restart from the centre is in order.

OB..
13-07-05, 17:07
I agree that it was an early charge. They are not entitled to ask you when they can charge. I think they were just being disruptive, so ban the charge. I would also restart the kicker's 1 minute clock. Equity. They disrupted his preparation, they should suffer, not him.

However the outburst was totally unacceptable. Instant red card without even thinking about it. It happened to one of our props last season. To his (minimum) credit, he came off with a rueful smile, admitting it was stupid to let fly like that.

The penalty is on the player, not the team, so you could let another team member take the kick, but surely you have to reverse the penalty?!

Do not let a sin-binned player interfere from the touchline. The standard is to make him go behind the opposition dead-ball line, and keep quiet. If he cannot keep quiet, let him know that you can award a second yellow (= red) and if that does not work, yellow it is.

madref
13-07-05, 18:07
Hello

Red card, I had a number 8 called me a f.....g w....r last year, 4 match ban.

I also had a guy who was holding on, waving a finger saying

This is a game about opinions Sir, I have mine you have yours you are f.....g wrong !

Red card 8 match ban

David

didds
14-07-05, 09:07
red?

for that outburst?

lucky to only get a red IMO!!!

didds

Pablo
14-07-05, 10:07
thehookah, how tolerant you are! I've red carded people for less than that. Referee abuse is something about which we must all be absolutely hardline. In being so, we are actually doing each other a favour - had you red-carded and reported your miscreant, he would have though twice about doing the same to another ref later down the line. As it stands, he probably feels that he got away with it. Such behaviour will only get stamped out of the game if we are all strict about it.

ExHookah
14-07-05, 14:07
Now realizing that I was way too lenient on the guy. It's a learning process I guess, and I should mention that while I've been playing for over 25 years, I've only been refereeing since March 2005, so I'm still in the process of setting my tolerance barometer I think.

The good thing is that I gave a detailed report to the head referee at the tournament, so when the captain and coach from the Blue team started bitching to him about me, he was able to tell them they should be thankful that all they lost was the match, and not part of their playing squad for a duration.

I agree with the comments about needing to punish this sort of thing so that it benefits all of us as a whole.