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Dickie E
01-09-07, 23:09
During my game yesterday this occurred:

In general play, I observed a player commit non-dangerous foul play and I played advantage. I also decided at the time that the offence warranted a yellow card.

The non-offending team made good ground and I called advantage over. The ball then went into touch.

I cautioned and binned the miscreant and restarted the game with the throw in.

My assessor disagreed with this course of action suggesting that an offence that warranted a card must also result in a penalty.

My argument was that "advantage - advantage over" is the same as a penalty.

Any thoughts on this please?

Simon Griffiths
02-09-07, 01:09
You were spot on (and your assessor completely wrong) as far as I'm concerned. If something warrants a yellow card, then there is nothing wrong with going back to sin-bin him after an advantage.

By the definition of quite a few YC offences, if you have to blow up and give a PK in order to card the player, then he's achieved his objective of stopping the flow of the game.

didds
02-09-07, 05:09
your assessor has to be an idiot.

In his world, an offence that warrants a YC taking place 60 metres out would stop the game and in effect (aside from a man advantage) give the non-offending team a PK ... possibly to touch, rather than advantage that may end in a try.

didds2

beckett50
02-09-07, 11:09
You were right, he was not only wrong but also mistaken in his opinion.

As you say '..."advantage - advantage over" is the same as a penalty'.

Saw Roy Maybank do the same thing last year at London Irish.

OB..
02-09-07, 12:09
Dickie E - I also agree with you rather than your assessor.

dave_clark
02-09-07, 15:09
just out of interest, what was the offence and what was the rationale behind the card? i can see this logic for slowing the ball down near the line or something similar, but you also mention that the attacking team made good ground...

Dickie E
03-09-07, 00:09
Dave, it was a tackle of an opponent after he had passed the ball with insufficient arms in the tackle. What you might call a mild dangerous tackle. It occurred on the 1/2 way.

Simon Griffiths
03-09-07, 00:09
Same result. Let them have the advantage, but a player should not get away with dangerous play simply because the other side played positively, didn't retaliate and took the advantage on offer. (Of course, some cases of dangerous play aren't the time to be playing advantage anyway).

jboulet4648
03-09-07, 02:09
If it was a mild dangerous tackle, why did you feel the need to YC?

Could you not have just had a word with Capt and player, and strongly admonished the tackle and remind the player that late tackles and failing to wrap could result in extended rest periods....

As far as the assessors viewpoint there are two thoughts here....

A team playing with a man up has an advantage from just numbers. Some assessors say blow the penalty, card and restart with a penalty kick (avoid a flashpoint if it really was dangerous play)

Another school of thought is, as playing advantage, or you blew whistle and teams take a quick tap, say, there will be a card, do you want the advantage....

Dickie E
03-09-07, 02:09
jb,

good point. I didn't mention that it was an U18 final. This is relevant in 2 ways:
1. a binned player is replaced so no impact on team number, and
2. I try to set my standards high and early. The obstruction was a 'mild' dangerous tackle. Late with no arms but no damage done. It was worth a YC in my view. Yes, I could have admonished, but chose not to.

Davet
03-09-07, 11:09
The avoidance of flashpoint view is pertinent, if the game is edgy and tempers a little strained - but in normal circumstances then to deny a team significant advantage simply to follow a pet rule of thumb would seem silly.

I think the lesson here is that there are no all enveloping answers.

What you did worked perfectly well, and there was no flashpoint, so in objective fact you made a good call.

The assessor would have been right to draw your attention to possible alternatives, and discuss with you when and under what circumstances you may have done things differently. Just to be sure you knew and were thinking about the game.

The only crucial all enveloping rule is make sure the players know you have seen the problem and WILL deal with it.

When I say there are NO all enveloping rules that is not an all enveloping rule.

dave_clark
03-09-07, 13:09
binned players replaced in an U18 match? i wasn't aware of that, is that a global law or just one laid down by your board? i can't see that in the U19 variations...

I'm planning to do a lot of youth matches this season (up to U17 level probably) so i guess this is one I should be aware of!

in terms of the card, i would tend to agree. late gets penalised, no arms gets penalised, both gets a yellow and if it's high (and hard, let's ignore a little cheap shot for the time being) too it gets a red!

jboulet4648
03-09-07, 14:09
You can't have a general rule like that. That is absurd. What you will realize as you move up is that many of these infractions while penalizable, penalties and admonishment and good management practices sometimes will work better than carding players.

dave_clark
03-09-07, 15:09
quite right, badly worded (or possibly even thought out) post. replace 'gets' with 'warrants consideration of'...

i'd still be inclined to card players involved in foul play though, rather than merely using penalties to manage the situation.

jboulet4648
03-09-07, 15:09
i'd still be inclined to card players involved in foul play though

As you should at this point of your development.


rather than merely using penalties to manage the situation.

Voice and words are more powerful than the whistle, cards and penalties, but this is something that will be developed as you referee

PaulDG
03-09-07, 19:09
binned players replaced in an U18 match? i wasn't aware of that, is that a global law or just one laid down by your board? i can't see that in the U19 variations...

It's not an England variation to the junior* game - in England from U13 up, a binned player is not replaced.


I'm planning to do a lot of youth matches this season (up to U17 level probably) so i guess this is one I should be aware of!

If you're refereeing in New Zealand, yes.

(*For English Continuum age games (U7-U12) there is no sending off or temporary suspension at all. If the referee wants a player removed from the field of play they have to ask to coach to substitute the player. In effect this is a red card as the player cannot play again that day but it is a private act not a public one.)

Dickie E
04-09-07, 03:09
the other features here are that it (the binning) is only for 5 minutes and the miscreant stands with his coach.

It's often a way of saying "OK, son, you're starting to lose the plot. Go and have a breather and a chat to your coach".

Likewise, a red carded player is replaced. The intent is to keep equal numbers on the park.

Simon Griffiths
04-09-07, 05:09
Not sure if I agree with that at all by the time you reach U18 rugby.


Someone playing at U18 level needs to learn to take responsibility for his actions. Dangerous play certainly needs to be shown to be wrong by taking a firm line (I agree that very young rugby players - mini/midi - will have co-ordination issues, but by U13/14 they don't have them issues). And as far as cynical play goes, the two most cynical teams I've refereed were U17 (I know it was cynical and not stupid play because of who coached them).

PaulDG
04-09-07, 10:09
the other features here are that it (the binning) is only for 5 minutes and the miscreant stands with his coach.

In England it's 10 minutes but just as for you, the player must not be isolated.


Likewise, a red carded player is replaced. The intent is to keep equal numbers on the park.

That applies to our U12 and down grades but not to U13 up.

As Junior rugby is supposed to be about developing players and skills - and not about collective punishment of a team for the behaviour of one possibly immature individual, perhaps we should replace binned/sent off players, but we don't.

Simon Thomas
04-09-07, 13:09
I agree with you PaulDG for the U12s in the Continuum, but at U13 and above players need to understand the behavourial and discipline requirements of our Game. I have refereed extensively across youth rugby from club U13s to County Colts.

I have used a yellow card very occasionally, and for repeated technical offences where a player is cheating / not listening to my advice ('hands off'). I have red carded two youth players in 7 seasons - both for violence on the pitch, one a series of punches and the other a severe head-butt and a third was a replacement who ran on and attacked a player from behind during a handbags incident.

I see no justification for replacing a carded or dismissed player in such rare occasions. If it were to be a regular thing then the club and coaches involved should resolve the issues involved (hopefully by changed behaviour and peer group acceptance - a common benefit of rugby for out-of-control youth, or by removing the disruptive player).

beckett50
04-09-07, 17:09
I have used a yellow card very occasionally, and for repeated technical offences where a player is cheating / not listening to my advice ('hands off'). I have red carded two youth players in 7 seasons - both for violence on the pitch, one a series of punches and the other a severe head-butt and a third was a replacement who ran on and attacked a player from behind during a handbags incident.

Rather than show the YC I will politely suggest to the coach that he may wish to substitute the player in question, so that he has a chance to calm down. Never had a coach not understand what I mean and they seem to respond in a positive manner by taking it on themselves to admonish the player concerned.

However, if the offence warrants a red card - as in your examples - I'd never back away from showing it. Happened only once so far, in a schools 7s tournament.

Simon Thomas
04-09-07, 18:09
"Rather than show the YC I will politely suggest to the coach that he may wish to substitute the player in question"

I can tell you have never been to Gosport then - they had a lovely bunch of educationally challenged U16s a couple of season's ago and a coach who made the local Polychaeta seems like PhD students !

PaulDG
04-09-07, 18:09
Rather than show the YC I will politely suggest to the coach that he may wish to substitute the player in question, so that he has a chance to calm down

I've used that and it has worked well.

In my experience, there are times in an adult game where a player may be getting a hot head, or who's simple lack of skill is becoming dangerous, and - sometimes after some promoting - the captain deals with the situation by having a word or by having the player substituted.

It's not always reasonable to think that a 12 year old captain of a U13 team can take on that burden - so getting the coach to do the right thing before things get out of hand is something I feel is appropriate.

Of course if someone does boil over a yellow or red might be required and I wouldn't have a problem giving either if necessary.

Dickie E
05-09-07, 00:09
Rather than show the YC I will politely suggest to the coach that he may wish to substitute the player in question, so that he has a chance to calm down.


But once substituted that is the end of the game for that player. Why would this be preferential to you, the coach or the player?

QE2wgc
05-09-07, 01:09
Dickie
In youth rugby sides are allowed "rolling subs", in only a few competitions are do we have restrictions on subs at youth level.

Dixie
05-09-07, 09:09
Dickie
In youth rugby sides are allowed "rolling subs", in only a few competitions are do we have restrictions on subs at youth level.

Although this is common as a local rule at tournaments, I am not aware that it's a formal variation in normal game play. Barring front row injury, I certainly don't allow it during games such as my one this Sunday between London Irish and Oratory School U.16's. As far as I can see, Law 3.12 applies

Simon Thomas
05-09-07, 10:09
My understanding is that RFU and RFSU (Schools) guidelines are to allow rolling substitutions at all ages U19 to U13 as an encouragement to play all sqaud members present (up to a limit of 25 players), subject to pre-match agreement between the two managers / coaches.

PaulDG
05-09-07, 10:09
Although this is common as a local rule at tournaments, I am not aware that it's a formal variation in normal game play.

If you're genuinely not aware, you should review the Youth Variations page on the RFU website. Re-use of replacements is specifically allowed:

http://tinyurl.com/27sqxb

"UNDER 13 TO UNDER 19 INCLUSIVE:

Rolling Substitutions - Law 3

A player who has been substituted may replace any player, whether or not that player has been injured.

Players may be exchanged at any time during the match, when the ball is dead, and with the knowledge of the referee."


Barring front row injury, I certainly don't allow it during games such as my one this Sunday between London Irish and Oratory School U.16's.

Then you are acting against specific RFU instruction.


As far as I can see, Law 3.12 applies

See above.

Dixie
05-09-07, 12:09
Many thanks - and just in time, too!