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David J.
05-09-07, 03:09
I played in socialish 10s tournament this weekend. My team (a semi-competitive men's club) committed a penalty at a breakdown which occurred about 5m from touch at our 40m, where most of the spectators and the opposing coach were watch.

I don't know if it was foul play or hands or what (I was still getting up from the last ruck, but the referee blew for a penalty. The coach of the opposing side,(a very competitive US men's college side), expressed his displeasure at the referee's handling of the situation, I don't know what or why.

The referee told him to keep it down, but the coach kept talking, I didn't hear what either the coach or referee said, but the referee blew his whistle again and awarded a scrum down, their put in, taking the penalty away.

From a game management perspective, I thought it was very effective, but I've got the sneaking suspicion that one can't actually do that. But then I've been reading a lot on this board lately about Safety, Equity, Law and it seems equitable.

As a side note, this referee isn't interested in progressing up the referee ladder, so the negative judgement of an assessor doesn't mean very much.

Thoughts?

mkottke
05-09-07, 04:09
I believe the referee hadled the situation correctly. And yes, you can ding a team for unsportsman like conduct from their sideline. Penalty's are usually directed towards the captain, especially if a YC is warrented. But if cards are going to be shown, might as well as ask the person to leave the pitch.

There have been times while covering youth matches, and even university matches, that you will have to talk directly to the coach. I found sometimes players are too young to be an effective tool or means of communication to the expressive coach. Usually they are a shotty team since any coach with a decent head on their shoulder knows better to open their lip. I find with the better teams, the coach will batter you with post match questions. Why did you do this, why did you do that?

OB..
05-09-07, 12:09
yes, you can ding a team for unsportsman like conduct from their sideline. Penalty's are usually directed towards the captain, especially if a YC is warrented.
Is this a Southern California special?

I know of no justification for penalising a team for the activities of its supporters. The referee does have control over the technical area, and can ask a coach to leave that, but no more AFAIK.

Gareth-Lee Smith
05-09-07, 12:09
REVOKING a penalty?! That's a new one. I could almost see a reversal happening (but still not justified in Law), but not a revocation.

My thoughts? I'd have paid no direct attention to the coach, but reversed the penalty with "I didn't see the backchat, but I know it was from your team, penalty reversed" - but only if I felt that it was absolutely necessary and actual a positive step rather than a negative one (i.e. it would shut the coach up and not antagonise him more).

Dickie E
05-09-07, 13:09
Is this a Southern California special?



:clap: :clap: :clap:

Simon Thomas
05-09-07, 13:09
In England under RFU juristiction, you can request the coach to leave the technical area, touchline, or even the entire playing area if the referee's non-confrontational requests for moderation of his/her behaviour are ignored.

However the referee has no support or justification in LoG or in any approved RFU or Society protocols in penalising a team on the field (and nominated replacements on the touchline) for the behaviour or activities of the coaching & support staff, or spectators.

There are a number of escalting sanctions that the refereecan be used


ask to be quiet
ask to leave touchline etc
suspend the match until resolved
abandon the match

An official report to the Society and Constituent Body would follow in most cases (except 1 and maybe 2), and if relevant a Referee Abuse form as well if applicable.

SimonSmith
05-09-07, 15:09
I agree with the bulk of the thread.

You can't do it. There was a specific memo from USA Rugby about not being able to card the Coach, and I put this penalty reversal in the same bucket.

Tempting as it sounds, there is no provision in law for it.

And (just to add fuel to fire) the referee was inconsistent in his application law. If the dissent/abuse was bad enough to warrant taking action, then it should have been a reversal and not just a cancellation.
If a player did it, you'd turn the penalty around, not just award a scrum.

mkottke
05-09-07, 18:09
Is this a Southern California special?

I know of no justification for penalising a team for the activities of its supporters. The referee does have control over the technical area, and can ask a coach to leave that, but no more AFAIK.

As for the initial question about reversing the penalty. Ding the other team with a penalty for being dissadent. I see no problem with the issue, other than an awarded PK rather than a scrum.

AFAIK?

Actually I have never needed to follow through with this threat, but it does get the coach to quiet down. Although, I believe the coaching staff and supporters should not be neglected. They are part of the team and should be accountable for their actions, even while not on the pitch.
Lets take for instance a player that was replaced and is no longer is on the field. Can you put them in the bin for interfering with play? Why not the coach, verbal assualt can be just as poignant as a physical interaction?

ONON-
Mark

David J.
05-09-07, 19:09
Here's another for you. Last year, I refereed this same tournament instead of played in it. Right before kicking off the second half of a women's match, a men's team was warming up in the in goal of the receiving team. I trotted over there and told them to move along and a few were resistant. I insisted and one player started verbally challenging me (this is not a team know for its gentlemanliness).

I had a choice to make of pushing back or ignoring it. I ignored it, went to the 50m to whistle the game and by the time I got there, they had made their way off the pitch. I think that was the best course, but I wonder if I should have YC'd the player. In this tournament a Red or 2 YCs is an ejection from the tourney.

Rugby self-selects for aggressive personalites and I think learning how to handle that psychology is one of the hardest parts of refereeing, especially at the men's club level (there's far less of that at the HS/College/Women's level).

David J.
05-09-07, 19:09
I agree with the bulk of the thread.

You can't do it. There was a specific memo from USA Rugby about not being able to card the Coach, and I put this penalty reversal in the same bucket.

Tempting as it sounds, there is no provision in law for it.

And (just to add fuel to fire) the referee was inconsistent in his application law. If the dissent/abuse was bad enough to warrant taking action, then it should have been a reversal and not just a cancellation.
If a player did it, you'd turn the penalty around, not just award a scrum.

I agree that the call is basically unsupportable in law, but does equity come into play at all? I've seen that term used in a couple recent threads (Ref in the way, pickup by 7, etc) and I'm not sure of its meaning. Does it apply here?

Also, there was a penalty against Blue, the defending team. In the course of dealing with the coach of Red, the referee had to stop time/play. Restart scrum to the attacking team per 20.4d?

I don't think that's what the referee was thinking, but is it plausible?

gallen
06-09-07, 10:09
I believe the referee was wrong and should nt have given the penalty against the team. The correct action in my opinion was he should been to send the coach from the touch line and or report him

Davet
06-09-07, 11:09
I trotted over there and told them to move along and a few were resistant.


In rugby - as in much else in life - it's not what you say it's the way that you say it.

"You lot, yes you, move off the pitch!"

"Hi guys, just to let you know we're about to kick off - any chance you could clear the in-goal? I'd hate to see any one get hurt."

Gareth-Lee Smith
06-09-07, 12:09
Yep, agree with Davet. If I walked up to the juniors who I coach at my club and told them to move along, I'd expect a bit of a hostile reception, never mind the thugs down the road who don't know me from Jack.