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didds
16-09-07, 15:09
black attacking, 5m out. Green 6 big hit (legal) on black 7., who goes down like a sack of spuds and lays there. Ruck ensures, black win ball, go wider a metre and re-ruck.

Green offside hacks ball upfield and play moves to just outside green 22, ref playing advantage to black for green offside. Black 7 still on floor, injured, looking pained.

ensuring play going nowhere, ref blows for PK back on 5m line. Somehow ball is thrown/kicked/rolled to area of PK adjacent to prone 7.

Black 7 then leaps to feet, suddenly uninjured, spring chicken like, taps and goes, passes to speeding supporter several metres away who scores!!

thoughts?


didds

Gareth-Lee Smith
16-09-07, 15:09
Ooh, nice. Genuine scenario?

I have two thoughts.

1) Award the try. Stern talking to for unsportsmanlike behaviour, with clampdown on any further slowing down of play with boot-tying etc.

2) Penalise for unsportsmanlike behaviour outside the spirit of the game.

I'd be tempted to go with 1), because there was no reason for anybody to believe that Black 7 was out of the game if there was no physio attending to him and he was still on the field.

I don't think any offside Laws apply here. So, try given, stern talking to and a clampdown. Probably a bit of mockery towards the #7 too. The *******.

FlipFlop
16-09-07, 16:09
It screams of unsportsman like conduct, especially if the "injured" player is deliberately faking it. And the boy who cried wolf springs to mind.

I'd call it back probably, with the reason that I had stopped play to deal with his injury, so therefore the clock was stopped, and the quick PK not allowed.

Then I'd restart with the original PK.

Butr once you have let the quick PK go (i.e. not called it back quickly), there isn't much you can do without looking stupid, you certainly want to whistle before the try is "scored".

didds
16-09-07, 17:09
cheers guys.

yes, genuine scenario, exactly as described.

Thought: maybe a tactic for us now (green!) is at any PK for us and advantage being played, we ensure someone is "injured" and down in the immediate vicinity of the PK position. (not sure I would ever have the balls to advocate such a tactic in reality! - but someone would! Tho I'm not suggesting that this was a deliberate ploy in this case. More a case of "a sot of grazing followed by a possible beenfot that was acted upon!)

cheers

didds

OB..
16-09-07, 19:09
I agree with FlipFlop - if you have stopped play and have an injury to deal with, you cannot allow the penalty to be taken quickly.

Gareth-Lee Smith
16-09-07, 20:09
If the guy jumps up quick enough, there is no injury to cheat.

Of course, you COULD call his bluff and check him over, to be on the safe side.

edit: Ooh, Freudian slip there: I meant 'there is no injury to treat'

David J.
16-09-07, 23:09
A player is tackled, appears hurt, then gets up after a penalty is awarded and takes a quick tap? Like so many of this borderline questions (if they weren't borderline, they wouldn't need to be asked), it depends on what I as a referee saw, but I lean towards playing on. How do you know he was faking it and did not simply overcome the pain? What advantage did Black gain? Just Green's inattention? What about the speeding supporter who scored, wasn't he availabe to take the kick?


Thought: maybe a tactic for us now (green!) is at any PK for us and advantage being played, we ensure someone is "injured" and down in the immediate vicinity of the PK position.

I certainly think players should not be taking football-like falls, but leaving a player at the point of an advantaging penalty may not be a bad strategy.

Deeps
17-09-07, 00:09
From your description it seems that the referee and presumably the rest of the players were making their way back from near Green's 22m when the ball arrived at the prone Black 7.

If the referee had made a mark for the penalty then where were Green at this point? With the mark given then no problem but it sounds as though no mark had been given so a referee could quite easily call it back before telling Black 7 not to be a prat:= .

Dixie
17-09-07, 09:09
cheers guys.

yes, genuine scenario, exactly as described.

Thought: maybe a tactic for us now (green!) is at any PK for us and advantage being played, we ensure someone is "injured" and down in the immediate vicinity of the PK position. (not sure I would ever have the balls to advocate such a tactic in reality! - but someone would! Tho I'm not suggesting that this was a deliberate ploy in this case. More a case of "a sot of grazing followed by a possible beenfot that was acted upon!)

cheers

didds

I've followed your reasonable and considered posts for long enough to know this is the bile talking, and to be confident that you'd not stoop so low in the pursuit of a game advantage. There's no indication in the post that the player was milking his injury, or that anyone was distracted by it enough to have a problem. Anyway, you'd do better just to leave an able-bodied player by the mark just in case - and you'd quickly discount that idea!

A player in the vicinity of the penalty award took a quick one, and passed to his support. The question about the mark is valid, but the ball travelled a fair way back to that mark, so it is a reasonable supposition that the ref had indicated where it was to be. Perhaps the only real question is whether the green players assumed that a quick one was not feasible, as only a crocked player was around? But then there was that supporting player - and probably a few other Blacks who had heard the call of Penalty Advantage, and seen the arm out - they would have been not too far behind the ref in my experience.

If green went to sleep, tut tut. If not, there was no problem. I think the idea of unsportsmanlike behaviour is stretching it - after all, the magic spray is not a necessary precursor to a player carrying on.

Davet
17-09-07, 13:09
I think as a matter of principle I would call it back and tell the player he had taken it from the wrong spot.

ex-lucy
17-09-07, 14:09
equity? defending players stopped to take a breather cos they saw an attacker lying injured?

didds
18-09-07, 21:09
What advantage did Black gain? Just Green's inattention? What about the speeding supporter who scored, wasn't he availabe to take the kick?


* i'd say the advantage was that black had a man that during the play during advantage was in front of his own team mate that had last played the ball, rather than moving onside (notwithstanding he was injured/knackered) - and as a result was in a position to take the quick tap when the PK was actually called rather than having to move the several yards that would have otherwise been needed (probably 10m distance minimum) first

* the speeding supporter was several lateral metres away when he received the scoring pass - doubt he'd have made the PK mark in time etc on his own.

HTH

didds

didds
18-09-07, 21:09
From your description it seems that the referee and presumably the rest of the players were making their way back from near Green's 22m when the ball arrived at the prone Black 7.

If the referee had made a mark for the penalty then where were Green at this point? With the mark given then no problem but it sounds as though no mark had been given so a referee could quite easily call it back before telling Black 7 not to be a prat:= .

not sure about mark being given - honest answer. Ref was waving his arms about indicating offside secondary signal.

didds

David J.
18-09-07, 22:09
black attacking, 5m out. Green 6 big hit (legal) on black 7., who goes down like a sack of spuds and lays there. Ruck ensures, black win ball, go wider a metre and re-ruck.

Green offside hacks ball upfield and play moves to just outside green 22, ref playing advantage to black for green offside. Black 7 still on floor, injured, looking pained.

ensuring play going nowhere, ref blows for PK back on 5m line. Somehow ball is thrown/kicked/rolled to area of PK adjacent to prone 7.

thoughts?

didds

You asked for thoughts. You don't have to agree with them. But I'm hearing the sound of grapes souring.


* i'd say the advantage was that black had a man that during the play during advantage was in front of his own team mate that had last played the ball, rather than moving onside (notwithstanding he was injured/knackered) - and as a result was in a position to take the quick tap when the PK was actually called rather than having to move the several yards that would have otherwise been needed (probably 10m distance minimum) first

He was on the ground, at the bottom of a ruck after being tackled and you're complaining he was 'offsides'? For how long? Until a second ruck a meter away occurs and your player illegally hacks the ball? After the ball was kicked, he was no longer offsides, open play.



* the speeding supporter was several lateral metres away when he received the scoring pass - doubt he'd have made the PK mark in time etc on his own.


Several lateral meters away...after the referee had blown his whistle and the ball had been subseuquently moved back 20 meters and not enough time?

Hey you were there, I wasn't, but why are you asking for input if your mind is already made up? You keep emphasizing what Black did. But according to your account, a player on your team committed a penalty 5m from his try line. I have little sympathy.

SimonSmith
19-09-07, 12:09
Can I try to simplify things here?

I think we're getting two issues confused: the perceived attempt to gain advantage through feigning injury AND the movement to gain a quick go at the penalty.

Two completely separate things: attempting to gain advantage through feigning injury is contrary to the spirit of the game, and should be penalized.

But not in this case. Let's say there had been no injury, and that Black 7 was just there in the normal course of events - what would you do? Well, I've lost count of the number of times that I've played advantage, and gone back to the mark for the penalty. The attacking team then have someone close to the mark screaming for the ball so he can go quickly. I have NEVER stopped that, assuming he isn't breaking any laws. Why would you?

I understand Didd's reaction, but I think when you sort the issues out as I have in my head, you can see which bit you're entitled to get pissed at!

Emmet Murphy
19-09-07, 13:09
I don't see how black 7 was doing his team any favours by feigning an injury ... if blacks were defending their own goal line then him feigning an injury to try and get play stopped would make a lot more sense but not the other way round. One note I would add is that unless you have agreed with physios / trainers that they can come on to treat injured players as play continues then really you should be stopping play if a player is down injured ... if players are staying on the ground for a breather then their teammates will soon put a stop to it especially if they are attacking 5m out!!

OB..
19-09-07, 14:09
I don't see how black 7 was doing his team any favours by feigning an injury
Not our job to decide if it is sensible or not.

However suppose the offence took place near the Black 7, and the ball was being passed down the line away from him. "My team will either score, or come back for the penalty. I will stay here and feign injury to fool the opposition into thinking I am out of the game".

The referee, having noted the apparent injury and decided it is not necessary to deal with it immediately, has an obligation when he next blows his whistle to check on the injury. Time off, so no quick tap. Then make the mark for the penalty, and time on again.

Woolfie
19-09-07, 15:09
A No 7 feigning injury?- Disgraceful!
Should be playing in the backs:D :D :D

didds
19-09-07, 21:09
After the ball was kicked, he was no longer offsides, open play.

in front of your own player who has last played the ball etc isn't offside?



But according to your account, a player on your team committed a penalty 5m from his try line. I have little sympathy.

I am not questioning the award of the PK. I am ... intrigued... about the validity of lurking close to a mark whilst in front of play (own side blah blah blah). I am clearly not alone in my intrigue either from others comments.

To be clear ; if everybody here assures me that this situation is OK then I have no problems; it opens up interesting tactics I was unaware of.

If instead it means we garner some debate, leafdng to the better education of all then that can only be positive.

Personally it looked "wrong" - but that doesn't mean to say it WAS wrong. I come here to learn - and i some cases educate (very occassionally).

didds

didds
19-09-07, 21:09
He was on the ground, at the bottom of a ruck after being tackled and you're complaining he was 'offsides'?


err.... no I wasn't.

didds

Emmet Murphy
19-09-07, 21:09
Not our job to decide if it is sensible or not.

However suppose the offence took place near the Black 7, and the ball was being passed down the line away from him. "My team will either score, or come back for the penalty. I will stay here and feign injury to fool the opposition into thinking I am out of the game".

The referee, having noted the apparent injury and decided it is not necessary to deal with it immediately, has an obligation when he next blows his whistle to check on the injury. Time off, so no quick tap. Then make the mark for the penalty, and time on again.

My point was that it was more likely he was not feigning an injury to gain some sort of unfair advantage. I didn't see this incident so I can't be 100% certain but from reading the original description - "goes down like a sack of spuds and lays there" - I'd expect an immediate whistle and scrum restart to team in possession.

Simon Griffiths
20-09-07, 17:09
ensuring play going nowhere, ref blows for PK back on 5m line. Somehow ball is thrown/kicked/rolled to area of PK adjacent to prone 7.

Black 7 then leaps to feet, suddenly uninjured, spring chicken like, taps and goes, passes to speeding supporter several metres away who scores!!

This is the crux as far as I can see (particularly the part I have emphasised). I am very uneasy with this situation. If he had been sufficiently injured to keep him down (and given this account, I use the word 'injured' very loosly) then he shouldn't have been able to jump up as described (or otherwise) in order to take the quick tap.

At the very least I would call them back because time was off (so that I could check on the player, whom last I saw lying on the ground 'injured'). But I myself sway slightly towards a penalty reversal for unsportsmanlike conduct (obviously this is case dependent, and you make your judgement as you see it). My concern is with the feigned injury as much as any advantage gained, and my potentially draconian approach to this situation based in my disgust of top flight football (and even greater disgust of rugby players in any way, shape or form trying to emulate it).

Well, my thoughts given the picture of the situation given to us.

didds
20-09-07, 22:09
2p worth.

I honestly think the player was injured/winded originally. As it was towards the end of the match there may then also have been an elemnt of grazing involved.

But I am not exaggerating when I described his subsequent action - he was very agile! I wouldn't have gone as far as to say it was a deliberate ploy... and I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely after having a little rest saw a fantastic opportunity. It was just seemed "wrong" - although as I said above,..,.. if I am wrong about that I am content to be educated.

cheers

didds

Account Deleted
04-10-07, 10:10
As I posted on a similar thread. I feel its against the spirit of the Law and should be dealt with.