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didds
16-09-07, 17:09
black attacking, green 22. Win lineout, set up maul, driving towards green line.

Maul collapses over line, bodies everywhere. Black screaming "try sir, try". Green shouting "held up sir, look, bodies everywhere underneath" etc.

Ref looks flustered. Clock ticks by. Players continue to shout, particularly black (perhaps understandably!).

Much dithering. Ref looks up at black players still in-field and shouts at them "SHUT UP! SHUT UP NOW!"

Looks back at bodies.

"Hold on hold on" shouts ref. Two piles of players in ground a metre of so apart. The ref is looking at both piles - not sure where the ball is even.

"Hold ON". "You move away" instructs ref to couple of players from each side.

Eventually (several seconds have now passed since the maul collapsed). "Green could have got there [points at ground near ball, green armS (note plural) all around ball, off ground] at any time after grounding. Try given".

Thoughts?

Oh - level 7.

didds

Mat 04
16-09-07, 17:09
No - Attacking scrum 5 - Doubt about grounding

In my opinion it is assholes like that who cause riots.

OB..
16-09-07, 19:09
didds - this is the third scenario where you have invited us to criticise the referee. Clearly you have described each situation as you saw it, but you are presumably the coach of one of the sides, so I just wonder if the referee saw things differently. That was very definitely the case at the match I watched yesterday (Level 8), and I agreed with the referee rather than the coach.

As described by you, scrum 5, of course. But you knew that anyway.

didds
16-09-07, 19:09
well, I accept exactly what you say OB wrt my perspective.

I was not actually querying any points of law, or even whether he was right or wrong in what he actually decided. What i was interested in was you guys thoughts on his ... decision process.

ie I do think it was scrum 5, unsure of what happened. However, had he looked at the ball and put his arm up that would have been a straight difference of opinion - and not one that I was better placed to have decided upon. What I was querying was whether it was a management style that is approved of to guess at what happened... or maybe better put, to openly and effectively admit to guess as to what had happened. I would hope not - but am here to be educated so I may understand better. I personally do not think it a management style that is likely to engender player confidence in abilities - YMMV.

cheers

didds

Dixie
17-09-07, 08:09
Didds, for what it's worth my approach is two-fold:

If I didn't actually see the ball being grounded for a try, I switch to "doubt about grounding" as the default mode.

Secondarily, if after a moment's casting around it is obvious from the position of the ball and surrounding bodies that the try was scored, notwithstanding my failure to see it, I will award the try. Otherwise (and in most cases) we will go for an attacking scrum 5.

Personally, I don't hold with the idea of peeling away bodies. If I had to do that, I would still be in some doubt about what actually happened when the ball was grounded, and so would go back to my default position.

Simon Thomas
17-09-07, 09:09
As described by Didds, I could have some issues regarding the referee's decision making process and if advising him officially would discuss as follows :


never make assumptions when there is any possible doubt of grounding
did you see the ball grounded - if not award scrum 5m attacking side (spot on Dixie, and this is clearly stated in the LoG)
do not unpeel bodies and wait to see who is at bottom - probably much arm and hand movement will have occurred after the actual claimed score / held up incident.
the referee should remain calm, cool, and collected at all times when all about are highly emotional and claiming score / held up.
make your decision and stick to it, but don't delay too long and certainly shouting at players is not a good management technique - a loud blast on the whistle is better with a calm "gentlemen, please let me make my decision in peace"


Mat - I see no benefit in being abusive about a fellow qualified referee, even if he may have made a mistake. We all know just how hard our role is and we should at least respect each others integrity and intent. If the referee has been appointed at level 7 for a League match, this is serious rugby with well coached and skillful players, and he will have experience and been assessed and graded over a number of seasons. We do not know the fuller context of the match and he may have reached breaking point after lots of verbals during the match, or he has problems at work / home, or just havign a bad match.

Greg Collins
17-09-07, 09:09
My input is worth less than tuppence but...

...I work on the basis that a side hasn't scored unless I'm certain beyond any doubt that they have touched down and all is well and good. If doubt existed in my mind in the scenario described then it is, deep breath "Peep! Sorry, Gentlemen, I did not see the ball grounded, Scrum 5 attacking ball". I can't think, in the few games that I've done, of any serious dissent over this; in fact the only instances of dispute have been the other way around, try clearly scored right in front of my nose, dumbass player unsighted on the other side of the maul-like thing shouting the odds...

So my default position is 'no try' until the attacking side ground the ball in such a way that no doubt enters into my head. (As a player (lock) I know I bundled over more than a few from 5m line outs that were given that weren't grounded properly. Can't think of one good ones that got disallowed.)

Much easier to do, of course, if you are in the right place at the right time, and I'm not always, and that makes it much more difficult to disallow but....

Dickie E
17-09-07, 10:09
and I think that the more contentious the issue the more confidently the official should rule on it.

OB..
17-09-07, 11:09
I must say, however, that when an umpire is in doubt, I think he is justified in deciding against the side which makes the most noise. They are probably in the wrong.
(Dr Almond, Scottish umpire, England v Scotland 1871)

Jacko
17-09-07, 12:09
Very good OB. Alternatively just rule against the welsh team, explaining as much if they ask.

Mat 04
17-09-07, 19:09
Mat - I see no benefit in being abusive about a fellow qualified referee, even if he may have made a mistake. We all know just how hard our role is and we should at least respect each others integrity and intent. If the referee has been appointed at level 7 for a League match, this is serious rugby with well coached and skillful players, and he will have experience and been assessed and graded over a number of seasons. We do not know the fuller context of the match and he may have reached breaking point after lots of verbals during the match, or he has problems at work / home, or just havign a bad match.

Thats rather strange Simon, I could of sworn that I seen you call another one a pompous arse only a short while ago.... :nono:

Gareth-Lee Smith
17-09-07, 19:09
My input is worth less than tuppence but...

...I work on the basis that a side hasn't scored unless I'm certain beyond any doubt that they have touched down and all is well and good. If doubt existed in my mind in the scenario described then it is, deep breath "Peep! Sorry, Gentlemen, I did not see the ball grounded, Scrum 5 attacking ball". I can't think, in the few games that I've done, of any serious dissent over this; in fact the only instances of dispute have been the other way around, try clearly scored right in front of my nose, dumbass player unsighted on the other side of the maul-like thing shouting the odds...

So my default position is 'no try' until the attacking side ground the ball in such a way that no doubt enters into my head. (As a player (lock) I know I bundled over more than a few from 5m line outs that were given that weren't grounded properly. Can't think of one good ones that got disallowed.)

Much easier to do, of course, if you are in the right place at the right time, and I'm not always, and that makes it much more difficult to disallow but....

Greg, you're clearly far too modest for your own good. Your advice here is extremely valuable, and I find it hard to argue with.

Simon Thomas
17-09-07, 22:09
Fair call Mat !

didds
18-09-07, 21:09
If the referee has been appointed at level 7 for a League match, this is serious rugby with well coached and skillful players,

one does one's best... *simper*

;-)

didds

SimonSmith
18-09-07, 21:09
Didn't realize you were still playing :D

The Saint
19-09-07, 18:09
A someone once said " When you get to the T junction on the cliff road, any decision is better than no decision" ;)