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Soutie
27-09-07, 23:09
Team is moving ball down the field with plenty of passing going on. They finally get the ball over the Try line and the Ref awards the try. (Blows, Signals and says try scored). Looks back to see TJ with flag out, Touch judge states that team in possession executed a forward pass. Ref negates the try and calls play back to point of "infringement" .
My question is that given that the try had been awarded and that the infraction was not foul play related was the ref right in calling play back ?

Mike Whittaker
27-09-07, 23:09
Experience ref would probably say to TJ that he was aware of the pass he is referring to and in his opinion it was not forward....:wink:

OB..
28-09-07, 01:09
TJ should not put his flag out for a forward pass, but only for foul play.
If the TJ had spotted foul play then the referee could un-award the try and go back for the penalty.

However the referee should have looked at the TJ first before awarding the try.

If the TJ has comms, he can tell the referee there was a blatant forward pass (in his opinion) and the referee can decide if he saw it as good or not before awarding the try.

A golden rule for TJs is "Do not make me look an idiot."

Deeps
28-09-07, 01:09
If the TJ was a qualified referee appointed to that game as part of a team of three then he should act in accordance with his pre match brief. This would probably include the words '...and don't hang me out to dry.' which would cover this situation.

If the TJ was not so qualified then at some point the referee should have made it clear to him as to the limits of assistance he required with the game. As the TJ used his flag to signal then I suspect the TJ was not authorised to make the call.

Help like this you can do without.

ExHookah
28-09-07, 01:09
A golden rule for TJs is "Do not make me look an idiot."

Judah has a similar rule, but with slightly more colorful language than the word "idiot"

peperami
28-09-07, 15:09
Judah has a similar rule, but with slightly more colorful language than the word "idiot"

I used to run touch for a now panel ref who had a great brief, along the lines of what he'd do with the flag pole, if he was hung out to dry.

Comms makes it so much easier, you just feed it in and if they dont agree, or dont want to blow they dont. So no one looks bad cause the advisor knows you saw it and the ref isnt made to look stupid.

Ben

Mike Whittaker
28-09-07, 17:09
Seems strange that just about everyone seems to expect touch judges these days, and of course the teams have loads of subs around as well in most games.

Indeed if teams are not full they don't seem to bother to travel to the match and cancel at the last minute.The nature of the game is changing...

Greg Collins
28-09-07, 18:09
Indeed if teams are not full they don't seem to bother to travel to the match and cancel at the last minute.The nature of the game is changing...

Our league organiser made the exact same comment at the end of last season, loads of last minute cancellations, not wanting to play 14, 13, 12 aside etc., etc..

One 'social' side last season, playing friendlies only then but in the leauge this year, turned up with 11 players to find the home side with 21 only for the home side to refuse to lend the visitors anyone! In a L13 FRIENDLY. The home team seriously expected to play 15 vs 11 and said the away team should have cancelled if they could not raise a side. Which is what they promptly did when faced with such a bizarre, and frankly non-rugby, attitude. I'd gone to watch the referee, who was well unhappy, and was so gobsmacked I was almost tempted, at 46, to turn out for the visitors.

A couple of weeks later I was reffing the visitors in a 60 minute 12-a-side uncontested scrums game against a local II side who loaned them 2 - we all had fun and it was quite a fast open game with over 100 points scored.

didds
28-09-07, 23:09
duplicated

didds
28-09-07, 23:09
greg - several years ago now we had exactly the same scenario visiting windsor.

travelled with 13, windsor had a bench but wouldn't loan players, so we played without wings.

After an hour we were winning, principally because our scrummaging was so hard their back row was kept in check and our defence was awesome, allied to some quick thinking in attack.

with 20 minutes to go they had the terrible misfortune to have suffered just sufficient injuries to create an uncontested scrummage scenario, even though the original hooker was still "fit" enough to play on the wing.

The ref when it went uncontested explained to us that he had no choice given the information he was being told, but added "I am not happy with what has happened here". I can only take that to mean that he wasn't convinced
that the injuries were genuine ones, but couldn't actually call their bluff (and I don't blame him incidentaly - his hands were tied) .

with the back row now under no pressure they were able to run riot (we had lost a player also by now to bring us down to 12) and ran in three tries to win in the end easily.

At no side the ref came over and apologised and said "the better team were robbed".

Windsor? Sad sacks were singing in the showers about their victory against 13 men with their 18.

What would have been Level 13 (based on 3rd XV = 2 x 3levels below 1st XV status @ level 7... no leagues then for 3rd XVs!)

didds

OB..
29-09-07, 12:09
I attempted to tackle this phenomenon in our Merit Table matches by allowing table points for loaning players. It was thrown out on the basis that it was too complicated for the players to understand.

Most teams seem to be sensible, but there are always a few each season who aren't.

Simon Thomas
29-09-07, 13:09
Clear regualtions were sent in writing to teams who play in Hampshire Merit Tables (plus copy to Refs Society)

a) matches can start with uncontested scrums if there are not enough FR players
b) teams with spare players are encouraged to make up numbers for teams who are short to achieve 15 v 15 wherever possible.

Even so some treams have refused to start with uncontested, or lend players. Very sad attitudes.

didds
29-09-07, 14:09
simon - in effect the same allowances are in place for the Dorset & Wilts deregulated leagues (levels 9 & 10).

It is a real struggle to replace the mindset of "must have a front row plus sub" to start however. I suspect its because very few people ever bother to read the regs.

didds

evilad
30-09-07, 21:09
In my opinion, having touched a few games, we are there to support thr bloke in the middle. If the try has been awarded, then let it stand. ( If for foul play then "flag up") There is going to be no thanks from the ref if you pull the game back for a forward pass.We see too many touch judges in top level rugby getting involved when they dont nee to. Things like this boil my piss as a player and a ref

dave_clark
30-09-07, 21:09
Windsor? Sad sacks were singing in the showers about their victory against 13 men with their 18.



i love comments like that. my U16 team had a similar one from the sidelines a couple of seasons ago. a gobsh*te from the opposition on the sidelines cried out...

"well done boys; you're not playing 15 against 13, you're playing 15 against 13 plus the ref"

muppet!

Soutie
30-09-07, 21:09
How did this thread get off topic from discussing TJ involvement in a game to "the art of Course rugby"

madref
01-10-07, 10:10
Hi

Go and look what we do in the north, two guys set this up from Vale of Lune, Fred and Reg. What they have done is superb.

A lesson can be learned from these people and since this has happened Rugby has taken off in the north west, if you look through the leagues you wil see some clubs fielding 5,6 and 7 teams!

David

http://www.zen57462.zen.co.uk/nowirul/index.htm