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Will.Q
02-10-07, 19:10
1) Pre-match brief on Sat I clearly explained to sides that I would only accept questions/queries from skipper and not anybody else. Throughout match aggressive No.4 constantly in my face questioning decisions. 2nd half, 5 minutes in, during scrum engagement he says something like "another effing wrong decision, that was crap ref." I call him and skipper over, explain I'd asked, told and now was taking action and binned him. Is this fair?
2) Last play of game; green chips and chases - ball goes deep into red 22. Red defender collects ball on deck, rolls ball back, green flanker over the top (still tackle - no ruck), nicks the ball - a few phases later green team scores. Red team infuriated as they state their defender wasn't allowed to get up by attacking green. My view was red defender made no attempt to get up and green was entitled to poach the ball. Is this fair?
Cheers.
W.

oxped
02-10-07, 20:10
1) absolutely fair enough.

2) As long as green flanker was on his feet and played the ball then no problem. He does not have to let the defender get up.

Will.Q
02-10-07, 20:10
In the lower level games I hear it all the time "he has to let him up ref." What is the official line on this?

Greg Collins
02-10-07, 20:10
In the lower level games I hear it all the time "he has to let him up ref." What is the official line on this?

All together now "Oh no he doesn't!"

You sure you weren't reffing my game on Saturday?

Will.Q
02-10-07, 20:10
As a new ref who has only just stopped playing at a fairly decent level (I'm 29) my personal favourite reffing the lower grade games is whenever I ping a player for hands in the ruck "I was on my feet ref" or "Terrible reffing, he was on his feet." It seems all L12 players think that if you are on your feet you can do anything, regardless of whether a ruck has been called or not. Whatever next - a forward pass followed by "No ref, I was on my feet".....

Gareth-Lee Smith
02-10-07, 20:10
Nothing surprises me, Will.

Every time I signalled a forward pass on Sunday, I was asked 'which one, sir?'. The rather terse reply came of 'the one before I blew the whistle'

Greg Collins
02-10-07, 20:10
Re point 1) First time No 4 gets in your face and speaks out of line speak to him and tell him firmly to keep quite and play rugby. Second time, blow up, call Captain and 4 over and say to skipper "We talked about this before the match now TELL your No 4 to be quiet". Make sure you hear him do it. Third time ping him penalty dissent, advise captain that you are running out of options, fourth time YC. If 4 is captain warn him he isn't immune to yellow cards "I'm not happy with your captaincy and you are risking a YC by speaking to me that way"

(and how I wish I could take my own advice on this)

Greg Collins
02-10-07, 20:10
My favourite "I was on my feet ref" riposte... "Then use 'em to get back 10 metres" whilst advancing the penalty. Don't put up with it.

Gareth-Lee Smith
02-10-07, 20:10
I'd go as far as to bang him on the first occasion. *******s.

Greg Collins
02-10-07, 20:10
I'd go as far as to bang him on the first occasion. *******s.

see, you're a harder man than me GLS!:bday:

oxped
02-10-07, 22:10
As a new ref who has only just stopped playing at a fairly decent level (I'm 29) my personal favourite reffing the lower grade games is whenever I ping a player for hands in the ruck "I was on my feet ref" or "Terrible reffing, he was on his feet." It seems all L12 players think that if you are on your feet you can do anything, regardless of whether a ruck has been called or not. Whatever next - a forward pass followed by "No ref, I was on my feet".....

I was in a similar position last year. Just be confident- you will now know (or soon know!) the laws far better than the players you will be reffing. If you are calm and confident, they will generally accept it, even if you are wrong.

But you will find there are lots of things that players and spectators believe to be true that are in fact false and vice versa- it is just all part of the challenge!

OB..
02-10-07, 22:10
Another one, re mauls, is "He's offside - pull him out!".
(a) he is often not offside - being caught in the maul on the "wrong" side of the ball is not in itself offside
(b) it is specifically illegal to drag an opponent out of a maul.

SimonSmith
02-10-07, 23:10
As others have said.....don't wait so long.

Sometimes - and I use this analogy at work as well - refereeing is like having kids. If you let them get away with it once, they'll keep pushing the line. Once you've drawn the line - which you did when you briefed the skippers - you HAVE to stick to it. Otherwise you risk undermining your credibility.

ExHookah
03-10-07, 00:10
Will,

Firstly, welcome to the refereeing fraternity and welcome to this fine forum.

Secondly, you were absolutely correct. Well done for having the guts to stick to your guns on it.

As has already been said, if the criticism is aggressive then sometimes theres nothing wrong with a yellow card coming out even earlier.

Remember that the laws surrounding respect for the referee are not because we feel we need to be above the players. It's a safety issue. We need to know that we can control the players so that if we need to give a particular instruction we will be listened to and our instructions will be followed. It's something that the players actually count on.

Think about it this way. A player needs to be able to jump for a high ball and have some reasonable expectation that he will be protected. A player on the ground needs to know that he can roll out of a ruck without getting boots to the head. A player who is answering back to you clearly does not respect your decisions, so what makes you think he's going to respect the other laws of the game.

A player like that needs to be reigned in, and if needed needs to leave the match. It's our responsibility as referees to deal with this, it is not just referees going off on a "power trip".

Rew15
03-10-07, 10:10
Welcome Will.

Perfect respose in both instances.

As a former fullback I was unaware untill I recently took up the whistle that a player doesn't have to let another regain his feet before he can play the ball.
As a player I was almost always allowed to get to my feet by opposition.

If the grounded player doesn't regain his feet before an opponent wants to play the ball then he can be penalised for holding on.

Well done.:clap:

Simon Griffiths
03-10-07, 11:10
Welcome Will. Correct on both calls in my opinion.

My opinion would be that Greg's progression is too slow and gives the player too many chances. Given that it was 'proper' dissent - i.e. not just 'I was onside sir' - I would, on the first occassion, give a stern talking to and a warning that the next time will result in a breather (not that you can't whip an appropriate card out on the first occassion if warranted). At schools level (as I found out a few weeks ago), if your scary enough with your threat, they won't even look at you for the rest of the match, let alone question a decision... :rolleyes:

When I get a player who is still bleating on about something when the PK or scrum is being set, I'll let him know that he is more than welcome to continue his diatribe on my decision, but he can do it from the comfort of the touchline - so far it has always worked.

ex-lucy
03-10-07, 12:10
level 12 is full of amateur would be refs in my experience, so i would be as per Greg's progression and be a bit more lenient BUT ... i would delegate to the capt these issues and involve him right from the beginning.
it depends on the context.
In some cases (see my 'fat boy' bad experience) , it is better advantage to keep the player on and just penalise him. the oppo are getting 10m every time plus good territory and possession from ensuing line out. i wouldnt advise that in 95% of cases though.
My prematch to level 12 would be something like ..
"Any qs thru skipper. I will NOT look very kindly on any advice from players as to how to ref."
first time: "skipper, no 12 is offering me advice, pls ask him to keep his thoughts to himself."
second time "skipper, no 12 is offering me advice again, pls tell him to keep quiet."
third time: call 12 and skipper over: "skipper, no 12 is offering me advice again, i have asked you to tell him to keep quiet, he is not respondng, i am now penalising him."
4th time: call 12 and skipper over: "skipper, no 12 is still offering me advice, i have asked you to tell him to keep quiet, he is not respondng, i am now penalising him again and i am fast running out of options."
5th time: call 12 and skipper over: "skipper, what is no 12's name pls? He is still offering me advice, i have asked you to tell him to keep quiet, he is not respondng, i am now sending him from the pitch for 10 mins for dissent."

of couse it depends on the advice ... and context etc. i am referring to "oooohhh, knock on ref. you missed a clear knock on there", "he has to be on his feet to play the ball", "i was on my feet." "that was a high tackle" etc.

anything like "terrible reffing" or "crap decision" ... skip 1st time/ 2nd time.
any advice with swear words/ cursing ... straight to pen with admonishment.

can we move this thred to bad exps?

OB..
03-10-07, 12:10
ex-lucy - I wish all junior referees would take your line.

The classic case was when the visiting captain/flanker was penalised and stood in front of the referee explaining exactly why he was completely wrong, preventing the opposition for taking the penalty, and the referee did nothing. Afterwards he told me he did not want to spoil the game. When I suggested that the player was in fact spoiling it for everybody, he saw the point.

In fact I think it was simply lack of confidence on the part of a new referee still finding his feet, faced with an over-confident experienced, older player. I am pleased to say the referee has improved substantially from those days (and the player has retired).

ex-lucy
03-10-07, 12:10
ex-lucy - I wish all junior referees would take your line.

cheers .. but it has taken me 3 seasons and a lot of advice from bored members, esp a few Simons on here. For new guys ... i feel for them.

Gareth-Lee Smith
03-10-07, 14:10
ex-lucy, your progression seems good, but I would penalise the second time at the latest.

Firstly, it's in the Laws that you don't dissent. That is a player's initial warning. Then you've warned him, that's two. Third strike is a penalty. Fourth is the YC. Sure, the team isn't getting 10m any more, but you're being distracted by some idiot and you've always got him (subconsciously) in the back of your mind. I know that on Sunday the Home #6 was penalised more than everybody else. Probably because I was fully aware of him because of my inital altercations.

Woolfie
03-10-07, 16:10
I do not allow bad language of any kind no matter who it is aimed at, & any foul or abusive language aimed directly at me would result in a straight red

ex-lucy
03-10-07, 16:10
no bad language at all?
what even if I knocked on and exclaimed at my own ineptness "bloody fool"?

GLS ... even at level 12?
At level 9 i concur and higher less lenient but level 12?

SimonSmith
03-10-07, 17:10
GLS ... even at level 12?
At level 9 i concur and higher less lenient but level 12?


Let me ask: I understand the "leniency" argument in terms of skills at lower levels - not necessarily blowing if someone falls over, for example.

But dissent? Why a greater degree of leniency there? That's a discipline thing, not a skills thing. I would apply the same standard, but with different management skills.

Woolfie
03-10-07, 17:10
When was the last time anyone ever said " bloody fool ":D
For all those occasions when players are merely expressing frustration i have always found " Gentlemen, language please there may be women & children watching", or some such wording works perfectly. No i never allow any bad language at any level

OB..
03-10-07, 18:10
Player: "F*****g idiot!"
Referee: PEEP!! "Penalty for abusive language."
Player: "But I was talking to myself, ref."
Referee: "When I am refereeing, NOBODY talks to you like that."

PeterH
03-10-07, 18:10
Player: "F*****g idiot!"
Referee: PEEP!! "Penalty for abusive language."
Player: "But I was talking to myself, ref."
Referee: "When I am refereeing, NOBODY talks to you like that."

Now I DO like that....

Davet
03-10-07, 18:10
I think there is a difference between dissent and bad language. If a player takes a kick at goal and misses, or one drops a simple catch, and then says "Bollox" or even "F*ck it" then I don't a problem at all.

I suspect that most of the women and children watching will have heard plenty worse, and use them regularly.

Key is not what is said, but to whom and in what sort of manner. I wouldn't get too excited about trivialities.

Greg Collins
03-10-07, 19:10
Welcome Will. Correct on both calls in my opinion.

My opinion would be that Greg's progression is too slow and gives the player too many chances. Given that it was 'proper' dissent - i.e. not just 'I was onside sir' - I would, on the first occassion, give a stern talking to and a warning that the next time will result in a breather (not that you can't whip an appropriate card out on the first occassion if warranted). At schools level (as I found out a few weeks ago), if your scary enough with your threat, they won't even look at you for the rest of the match, let alone question a decision... :rolleyes:

When I get a player who is still bleating on about something when the PK or scrum is being set, I'll let him know that he is more than welcome to continue his diatribe on my decision, but he can do it from the comfort of the touchline - so far it has always worked.

LOL - Schools, I know what you mean; in an U15 Daily Mail Cup game this pm I blow up for a knock on, a voice pipes up "no way is it that right", I GLARE at the malfeasant and his entire pack started jogging backwards before the whistle had even reached my lips. :D

Now of only it was as easy with their Dads, and Grand Dads......

I accept that my route may be a bit too softly, softly, even for L12, and am seriously thinking of shortening it by cutting out the first "shut up and play" and going straight to "Ping" at the first which is what I tried out this afternoon and didn't hear one word thereafter.

Sinkers
03-10-07, 20:10
what a relief this conference is at times.
just to hear similar man management problems.

ex-lucy
04-10-07, 12:10
i am worried about you guys' dislike of swearing ...

imagine a vets match .. better.. a tournament.
These guys are old. Very skillfull .. once upon a time, the brain wants to but the body doesnt. You will see all sorts from dummies to side steps to knock ons etc.
Are you telling me really that you would
1. in prematch say no swearing?
2. during the match penalise swearing for a frustrated 50 yr old player passing an interception or knocking on?
3. Card for repeat offence?

just cant see myself doing this ...

A 70 year old breaks .. he's past the half way ... up to the 22m and drops the ball "SHIT" he shouts ... you card him!!!!

some of the matches i have played in would have ended up with no packs playing by halftime..... esp FR.

SimonSmith
04-10-07, 12:10
No great problem with swearing within reason.
Swearing at or about me, however - very different.

David J.
04-10-07, 12:10
I certainly don't agree with the no swearing. There is a ref in the local union who feel that way though.

Just last year, I was playing in a match that was a little punchy and tackled a player, got to my feet and attempted to play the ball, the tackled player held on for enough time until his support came. A player on the other team tried clearing me out and yelled "Get off ****er!". The referee blew and thinking I had cussed, said the player on the ground was wrong, but he was reversing the penalty for foul language. After the match when I protested my innocence again, his justification was the match did calm down after that. Oh the injustice!

Now the team leadership knows about this referee's proclivities and we make sure the rest of the player do too.

Greg Collins
04-10-07, 13:10
My tolerance of "general" swearing goes down in proportion with the players ages - and enforcing it sometimes makes me feel a prat but what the heck.

In the adult game I just ignore it unless it is so loud that people on the next pitch can hear it in which case a "quiet word" is on order.

My tolerance for being sworn at is zero at all times - just like real life.

dave_clark
04-10-07, 13:10
do you differentiate between 'at' and 'towards'?

Dixie
04-10-07, 13:10
do you differentiate between 'at' and 'towards'?Not if aimed in my direction, or that of any TJ I may have running the line. A player who swears AT me is simply someone with more courage than the player who swears TOWARDS me. The latter is more reprehensible, but both disrespect the authority of the ref, which is contrary to the playing charter and a penalty offence.

I once encountered a ref who was a clergyman, and whose brief included the fact that he viewed swearing as unsporting behaviour and blasphemy as ungentlemanly conduct. He awarded a scrum for the former, and penalties for the latter. He also wore a dog collar to referee. We soon got the hang of it, for Christ's sake (Ping - oops!).

Simon Thomas
04-10-07, 13:10
In England gents you have a clear mandate and instruction (http://www.rfu.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/RFUHome.News_Detail/storyID/15099/storytypeID/1/), announced on 6th November 2006 applicable to all levels of the Game and to all referees.

"The RFU Management Board has introduced and approved an instruction for referees to enforce strictly the rules concerning verbal abuse of players and match officials and the use of obscene and offensive language at all levels of the game from Level 12 (clubs) through to the Guinness Premiership. The use of obscene and offensive language is contrary to the spirit and ethos of the game as set out in the International Rugby Board's Playing Charter and the RFU codes of conduct for players and spectators.........RFU Disciplinary Officer, His Honour Judge Jeff Blackett said "Clearly in a robust game there will be banter but there is a line that cannot be crossed where it becomes gratuitous and offensive abuse."

ex-lucy
04-10-07, 15:10
there you go .. told you ST's the man ... now i have no excuse.

Davet
05-10-07, 08:10
If the foul and or obscene language is directed at someone, then I will take appropriate action - depending on the nature and severity of the abuse.

If it is directed at the situation, an expression of frustration' and not made in an abusive way then I take the view that we are all grown ups. If loud I may just comment "Language, Gentlemen".

Simon Thomas
05-10-07, 09:10
exactly as the RFU intend it to be done DaveT, using your judgement and management skills.

Common sense and pragmatism.

ex-lucy
05-10-07, 10:10
so .. what about the incident whereby a ref swears ... accidentally and completely out of character ...
scenario .. pitch is worn and badly lined ... player dives for the line and touches down. ref blows whistle and awards a try. TJ shouts ... "sir, that's the 5m line" ... "...oh shit" says referee ... "scrum down, attacking side ball"
seen/heard it ... a few times.

PeterH
05-10-07, 11:10
lol - my game on Wednesday - the hooker is at the back of a cracking driving maul - superb control really :)

You could see it coming...
15m out - and driving hard - up comes the 5 and down he goes... violently nodding his head and shouting "come on sir"
I shout "hands away" while trying hard to restrain the smile and move to the other side... then he shouts "bloody hell can't you see me"

I decided to ignore that one as his SH lifts out the ball and passes blind to the winger who scored... 5m further on...

He immediately apologised and I asked "what for? - I didn't hear you sorry" :)

Having done it myself - i really felt for him :)

:rolleyes:

SimonSmith
05-10-07, 12:10
The joys of being the USA.
My usual "oh hell I screwed it up" curse of boll*cks apparently isn't a swear words over here. :)

Davet
05-10-07, 12:10
Why not tell him he's on the 5, not the goal-line?

PeterH
05-10-07, 13:10
I did - he didn't click which is why I called hands away to warn him of the impending penalty for not playing the ball.... I was trying to keep the move going...

Greg Collins
05-10-07, 14:10
The joys of being the USA.
My usual "oh hell I screwed it up" curse of boll*cks apparently isn't a swear words over here. :)

Back in the day's when Jasper Carrott was still funny he used to do a great skect about a US number plate with B*ll*cks on it.

Will.Q
08-10-07, 21:10
Right - I started this thread off and having reffed another game (level 12s - both 3rd teams but it was a league match) on Saturday, a further situation has arisen.
Red attacking ruck. I'm positioned at line parallel to base of ruck around 3m to right of this line. Red player picks and drives from ruck but goes very wide and straight at me leaving me little room to move fully out of his way. I just about get out of his way, he goes through, fly hacks, on-side No.10 rushes forward 30 or so metres forward and scores a very good try indeed. I certainly didn't prevent a tackle from being made and my positioning was good, the carrier just went very wide at his pick and go. If I'd of thought I'd of prevented a tackle, I'd of blown up.
After awarding a try, blue team prop approaches me, eyeballs me face to face pointing his finger right in my face and says " you got in my f*****g way there ref."

What would you have done?

Emmet Murphy
08-10-07, 21:10
YC (at least) for dissent - possibly a red depending on how aggressive he was. Maybe try to stand further back at subsequent rucks but don't say that to the players.

Pablo
08-10-07, 21:10
Penalty at the restart. "Talk to me like that again, and you'll walk. Do you understand?"

Emmet Murphy
08-10-07, 21:10
Oh Yes - Sorry, I forgot a try had been scored. Definitely a penalty restart too!

beckett50
08-10-07, 22:10
After awarding a try, blue team prop approaches me, eyeballs me face to face pointing his finger right in my face and says " you got in my f*****g way there ref."

What would you have done?

You could either retort with a "and was I in the way of your 14 team-mates!"!:wow: - but that depends upon the rapport you have with the players:)

Best way is a quiet word to explain that you have to be somewhere and that had you felt you'd impeded him then a scrum would have been in order, however a penalty restart is now in order due to his verbal abuse of a match official. Of course, you could just smile sweetly at him and ask his captain to 'have a word'!

The latter often works better.

Greg Collins
08-10-07, 23:10
After awarding a try, blue team prop approaches me, eyeballs me face to face pointing his finger right in my face and says " you got in my f*****g way there ref."

What would you have done?

The finger pointy eyebally stuff tips it over into YC territory as that is aggressive behaviour.

I watched someone whilst I was TJ'ing last season who said, with a big smile on his face something along the lines of "My good fellow, there are 30 of you. There is but one of me. Until the Almighty gives me the power to levitate I have to stand somewhere. I suggest in future you go around. This may require you to run faster" Player didn't see the funny side so the tone changed and it continued "As for now, piss off for 10 minutes. The rest of us will restart with a penalty on halfway"

Talking about it afterwards he said he wouldn't have sin binned him if the player had backed off. Personally I thought the initial lecture aggravated matters but this particular ref is very experienced and is generally well respected on the park.

The Saint
08-10-07, 23:10
Yes I'm with the others. Pointy finger and swearing at you - no excuse, YC and penalty restart.

Greg, your mate would seem to have aggravated his situation and telling him to 'piss off for 10 minutes' is as bad as a player swearing at the ref IMHO.

On a lighter note, I was miked up for an assessor last week. Five minutes in and we have had 2 break away tries already and I am panting like good 'un. Walking back towards the middle of the park to watch the conversion, after my Linford Christie special into the corner to award the try, mutter to myself "For f*c*'s sake," in exasperation, as I'm struggling to regain my breath. Suddenly realise I am miked up and look rather sheepishly at the assessor:o

Greg Collins
09-10-07, 08:10
Greg, your mate would seem to have aggravated his situation and telling him to 'piss off for 10 minutes' is as bad as a player swearing at the ref IMHO.

I would agree you. He wouldn't. We had an "interesting" debate in the changing room afterwards in which I was put firmly in my place, and on reflection his arguments do hold some water.

I wouldn't be able to pull it off. I doubt any ref at my level could. He can. In his day he would have been at least Fed ref The player deflated and walked without further ado and the skip apologised immediately on the field. No YC was shown to anyone but everyone knew what had gone down. I was impressed and appalled in equal measure:eek:

Greg Collins
09-10-07, 08:10
On a lighter note, I was miked up for an assessor last week. Five minutes in and we have had 2 break away tries already and I am panting like good 'un. Walking back towards the middle of the park to watch the conversion, after my Linford Christie special into the corner to award the try, mutter to myself "For f*c*'s sake," in exasperation, as I'm struggling to regain my breath. Suddenly realise I am miked up and look rather sheepishly at the assessor:o

He will have heard worse!

ex-lucy
09-10-07, 09:10
had you felt you'd impeded him then a scrum would have been in order,

no, not in LotG. only a scrum if you impede ball carrier not the defender