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breako
21-10-07, 20:10
Hi,
Its open play, and a player makes a shout:
"Ah come on ref, that was flipping forward." You decide, enough is enough, this is dissent. You decide to penalise for it, where should the penalty be?

Gareth-Lee Smith
21-10-07, 20:10
Either at the point where play is currently at, or at the position where the player is standing, whichever is closer to their tryline.

Not sure if it's legal in law but...

Simon Griffiths
21-10-07, 21:10
Point of offence? Not entirely sure... BUT, don't just blow it straight away, as I did on one occassion, just as the other side were about to go over to score unopposed... :o

PeterH
21-10-07, 21:10
I wouldn't generally ping for dissent in open play - manage it
Talk to the swine at the next breakdown :)

What is the material effect? I often turn a deaf ear as a ref (just as I always ignored the ref as a player)- only if they are confrontational about it would I respond generally...

Speak to his/her skipper - tell them you agreed a procedure for discussion... and that this isn't it! Ask (skipper) and warn (loudly and publicly) first - if they continue then often you will have the team onside when you then ping their player for having another go...

breako
21-10-07, 22:10
I wouldn't generally ping for dissent in open play - manage it
Talk to the swine at the next breakdown :)

What is the material effect? I often turn a deaf ear as a ref (just as I always ignored the ref as a player)- only if they are confrontational about it would I respond generally...

Speak to his/her skipper - tell them you agreed a procedure for discussion... and that this isn't it! Ask (skipper) and warn (loudly and publicly) first - if they continue then often you will have the team onside when you then ping their player for having another go...
Basically this was on a late hit / committed tackle situation. Full back was clearing the ball, and was adamant he was hit late by opposing player. I thought the player was committed to the tackle. Full back got up and gave out stink to me. I told him 'watch it' and moved on with the game.

Dixie
21-10-07, 22:10
There are huge gradations in dissent - from the raised eyebrow to the all-out b**locking. Where you draw the line is up to you, but experience suggests that ignoring it only ramps up the scale. My worst-ever game was when I was being unduly lenient to the pack leader who was "not going to comment on that decision, but some might think it was a stinker!" Before long, both sides felt free to issue sidelong comments at will, and attempted to take matters into their own hands. With the benefit of hindsight, we'd all have been a lot happier and had a much better day if I'd immediately told him to keep his opinions to himself, then pinged and YC'd until he got the message.

I'd put the public b**locking he gave you at the upper end of the scale, and certainly worth a strong PK - probably kickable. All players must respect the referee's decision on pain of a PK. The offence is dissent - PK where it happened, after taking account of the possibility of advantage.

Greg Collins
22-10-07, 09:10
I'm with Dixie, and my games have got a lot easier to manage since I started taking a tougher i.e. zero tolerance, line on back chat. Where once I had higher tolerance and was trying to manage via discussion now if they cross my lower threshold I shut my own mouth by sticking a whistle in it and blowing. YC'd someone for dissent yesterday. I awarded turnover scrum for unsuccesful end to maul, "No f*cking way Sir" is called by player A. Scrum becomes penalty for Dissent. Player B looks straight at me and SHOUTS "That's total b*ll*cks ref!" so loud they heard him on the next pitch (whose ref asked me afterwards "Why did you only bin him? I'd send him off for less!") is told to shut up by his own side but damage is done. YC and penalty advanced 10m. 5 points scored whilst he is off the pitch.

big fish
22-10-07, 10:10
I have to agree with Greg. I find a zero tolerance on dissent, especially in first ten minutes creates a much better game for everyone as everything flows as everyone realises to get on with the game.

outofpuff
22-10-07, 10:10
At captains brief both told 'no questioning of decisions, Your team has three warnings before I think about a card. This is your first warning'
First time on pitch, use contextual judgement - if offending side will suffer with penalty give it with comment' You may be right, but it's my call, back 10' Make it clear to offending skipper who the miscreant was and warn him loudly that another offence means I may go to pocket.
Before penalty taken advise non-offendiong team to take note.
Usually has desired effect.
Yesterday heard coach say to his team prior to game. ' we know this ref will bang chat so don't'. They didn't, we had a smashing game.

Pablo
22-10-07, 11:10
Stock phrases I have for dealing with "helpful" comments in the vain of "forward, ref" or "he's offside" start with a little humour - which often embarasses players into shutting up - and then work upwards:

- "Come on lads, everyone knows refs are blind. Don't you lot try and make me go deaf as well."
- "You've got the ball, I've got the whistle - let's not play with each other's toys."
- "You're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong" (delivery is important with this one - try to say it with a wink and a smile, or it'll come across as arrogant)
- "Nice as it is having 30 advisers out here with me, I'd prefer to referee this on my own." (this is for when I'm beginning to get exasperated and is the last humorous comment I'll make)

Humour stops.
- "Skipper, too much chat" (general)
- "Skipper, he needs to shut up now" (specific player)

Next "helpful" comment gets a penalty: "Skipper, we've talked about this and you've failed to control it. Try harder."


Swearing, however, gets an absolutely zero-tolerance approach. A player who drops an expletive in my direction (with the sole exception of the chap I ran into last season) gets a 10 minute sit down. If that expletive is accompanied by several others and/or any attempt at intimidating behaviour, his game is over and there might be an abuse report going in as well, depending on circumstances. This is the line we should all take out of consideration for next week's ref - after all, we're all going to be next week's ref somewhere...

Gareth-Lee Smith
22-10-07, 11:10
Good line on the swearing, Pablo. Hadn't paid it much thought to be honest, and would probably only have given a PK and a strong word if I reffed the game tomorrow. Upon consideration, your line seems spot on.

Simon Thomas
22-10-07, 12:10
Pablo has it spot on. This is te advice we give to our Society members.

Zero tolerance if past the repetition or severity threshold.
If humour suits your personality then use it, but don't if it isn't you.
Swearing is totally out of order and RFU have been very clear on that - PK, YC, or even RC if abusive as well.

Rew15
22-10-07, 13:10
I had a similar thing on Saturday.
Away side penalty and home second row chips in with 'watch him slice this'. Didn't put kicker off so let it go. He then does it a second time and again doesn't put kicker off but on the jog to the lineout I say nice and clearly 'try that again 5 and it'll be a penalty and not a line out' .
Funilly enough he doesn't say another word.

Pablo- I like the comebacks as well. It's nice to be able to have a bit humour with the players, in the right way.

Mat 04
22-10-07, 14:10
advantage advantage advantage

ex-lucy
22-10-07, 15:10
level 11 league match
15-13 to black. good hard close match. a couple of 'incidents' but nothing malicious. both teams trying their best to play rugby.
play is on 22 and 15m in. 2 mins to go.
tackle by black 6 on blue 10.
blue 10 is prevented from releasing the ball.
I award a pen to blue.
Black 6 gets up and screams "he didnt let go. something. All f***in match."
I blow good and hard and ask black skipper to bring black 6 to me to have a chat.
I bollock black 6 and explain to him what the pen was: for him not releasing the tackled player. "pls dont swear at me. there are 2 mins to go. be very very careful in the next 2 mins of what you do and say."
"yes sir, sorry sir"
i award a pen. no YC. i put it down to frustration in a close hard fought match.
successful kick: 16-15 to blue.
game ends.
both skippers said that i handled the situation extremely well and had a very good game with good decision making.
wasnt that kind of game for YCs.
black 6 was effusive with his apologies afterwards and thanked me for not over reacting.
so sorry, if i went against RFU directives (and my own first thoughts at the time) but .... i think i got it right this time.

Padster
22-10-07, 16:10
I do enjoy a smattering of humour in a match. I usually have to apologise for keeping up with play when players express disappointment about a close forward pass decision.:D