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Dixie
25-10-07, 16:10
Red vs Yellow. League game - total mismatch. Final score 0-83 to red.

Two questions: firstly, the ref shaved about 5 minutes from each half. Is this acceptable practice in a league match, where points difference may ultimately become a factor in the title race?

Secondly, with red able to score from deep, they were running everything. After a rare break into the red 22, by yellow #15, red recovered the ball and set up a ruck about 30m from their own line, from which they got quick ball. The retiring yellow #15 found himself in the way of the pass from red #9 to red #10, and deliberately kicked the ball to prevent the pass being completed. The ref yellow carded him. Was this an appropriate response to what Yellow insisted was a light-hearted moment of mock-despair from #15?

Gareth-Lee Smith
25-10-07, 16:10
First question: if there's no scope for it in the League's regulations then no. However, if both teams agree to it then maybe, it's a fine line. In Junior rugby, however, I'm told to cut the first half short if one team is being hammered, just so they get a second half.

Second question: Interesting one. Penalty for offside perhaps (it appears that you're describing a loitering player, albeit a retiring one?), and maybe a YC depending on how cynical the ref felt the act was. If Red were already a million points up and there was no reaction from the Red team then I don't see the problem and perhaps a penalty was enough.

Emmet Murphy
25-10-07, 17:10
Are you certain the ref cut the time in each half? Sometimes it can seem that way - especially if he is not signalling clearly for time off and time on after stoppages. As for whether it is okay in principle, it would depend a lot on if there is a maximum score - many leagues that I ref in have maximum scores and once we go past that by about 15-20 points I'm usually asked to end the match

PaulDG
25-10-07, 17:10
League or Merit Table?

We're told it's up to the captains in Merit Table games - if they've had enough 10 minutes into the second half and both agree, that's "full time".

Simon Thomas
25-10-07, 17:10
In English NCC (the Leagues) there is no option to cut time - you must play the full 80 mins.

In Merit Tables some organisers agree to have maximum scroes.
For Youth rugby it is usually specified in League, Merit table or Cup Rules what max score is (often 50 pts) before you stop it.

As for YC for yellow # 15 - I would have penalised and admonished (as well as sympathised). YC seems a bit harsh.

PeterH
25-10-07, 19:10
I was heavily criticised last year for YC'ing the (heavily) losing skipper for his 3rd killing the ball - at that point they were maybe 50 down in a L10 (ish) 2nd team game...

The away side turned up with 10 - had 4 lent them and played - the watching Northern Fed guy (very well regarded in our Soc) said what I did was ridiculous and that there had been no need for it as it had no material effect...

Padster
25-10-07, 20:10
In youth matches we have been advised that if the score gets to 50pts then we should be asking the losing side coach if they wish to carry on. There is little point in prolonging their agony.

Greg Collins
26-10-07, 08:10
I was heavily criticised last year for YC'ing the (heavily) losing skipper for his 3rd killing the ball - at that point they were maybe 50 down in a L10 (ish) 2nd team game...

The away side turned up with 10 - had 4 lent them and played - the watching Northern Fed guy (very well regarded in our Soc) said what I did was ridiculous and that there had been no need for it as it had no material effect...

By that logic you should, once the margin is 50 points or more, simply ignore all the loosing side's forward passes, knock ons and foul play, as they are having no material effect either....

Materiality is, as debated in other threads, best left for the higher levels.

Greg Collins
26-10-07, 08:10
In youth matches we have been advised that if the score gets to 50pts then we should be asking the losing side coach if they wish to carry on. There is little point in prolonging their agony.

Barring the Daily Mail Cup games for youth rugby we are advised to carry on until the bitter end even though the league only records a maximum of a 40 point differential.

PaulDG
26-10-07, 09:10
In youth matches we have been advised that if the score gets to 50pts then we should be asking the losing side coach if they wish to carry on. There is little point in prolonging their agony.

Just a FYI as it appears many do not know this, in Continuum (RFU U7-U12) matches once the gap exceeds 30 points you must stop the game.

The RFU considers continuing at that point to be a breach of the Duty of Care to the kids involved.

PeterH
26-10-07, 09:10
By that logic you should, once the margin is 50 points or more, simply ignore all the loosing side's forward passes, knock ons and foul play, as they are having no material effect either....

Materiality is, as debated in other threads, best left for the higher levels.

Couldn't agree more Greg - obviously the "better" side were getting a little annoyed with him - I YC'ed him for his own safety as much as anything... when I spoke to another senior ref at the Soc... he didn't agree with the other chap but ...
Since then - I ref a bit differently...

Greg Collins
26-10-07, 12:10
Since then - I ref a bit differently...

If you're picking up L7 games on your 9+2 I should hope so too;)

That said I find the aftermatch/pitch side hints'n'tips given by fed members to lowly refs to be either sheer genius or totally inappropriate with little falling in between. I guess we each have to simply referee our own games as we see fit on the day.

PeterH
26-10-07, 13:10
If I remember right - I seem to recall this Fed man giving 83 penalties many moons ago in a L1 game where I had just walked off the 2's pitch and watched for 15 mins :) (before YC's)

I took it with a pinch of salt - but he is one the man who counts in our Soc... I have tried to applied it a little as materiality is summat I keep hearing :)

Greg Collins
26-10-07, 14:10
rules of thumb I've been given for L11; material if it affects the ball carrier, material if it affects the movement of the ball, material if ref judges it to be deliberate 'cheating', material if it's foul play, material if the ref says it is....

My only general application of the last one is slightly not straight at line out and opposition don't compete.

But I'd expect better/wider/wiser application of materiality up the levels even though this frustrates the heck out of supporters and touch line alakadoo's alike. Crossing vs. Obstruction, Offside (with zero effect) vs Offside and taking part, ball close to body in ruck vs place 1m away, all seem to incur the cry of "For f*cks sake be consistent ref!" whenever I'm on the touch line. (but not from me....)

PeterH
26-10-07, 14:10
Last week - I had a ruck near the 22m - attacking side winning ball

Def winger (blind) came offside - i warned him and he moved back slowly...
I signalled advantage...

They took it and scored...
After the game - the def coach asked why I had signalled adv when he moved back onside...
I felt he had closed off an option that the attacking team WAS looking at..
they then went open and scored anyway...

Earlier - I had asked players to move back/they did and I didn't signal advantage as I felt they hadn't affected play - it doesn't make me consistent perhaps - but I felt that he had taken away a good attacking option

Greg Collins
26-10-07, 15:10
Last week - I had a ruck near the 22m - attacking side winning ball

Def winger (blind) came offside - i warned him and he moved back slowly...
I signalled advantage...

They took it and scored...
After the game - the def coach asked why I had signalled adv when he moved back onside...
I felt he had closed off an option that the attacking team WAS looking at..
they then went open and scored anyway...

Earlier - I had asked players to move back/they did and I didn't signal advantage as I felt they hadn't affected play - it doesn't make me consistent perhaps - but I felt that he had taken away a good attacking option

For me as you've described it you were spot on and the def coach doesn't 'get' materiality in offside, one of the few places in the LotG where it is made explicit albeit without using the m word.

A player who is in an offside position is liable to penalty only if the player does one of three things:
Interferes with play or,
Moves forward, towards the ball or
Fails to comply with the 10-Metre law (law 11.4).
-and-
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.

i.e Offside players don't have to be penalised unless ref judges they have an effect on play. That is consistent with the LotG rather than a model of consistency which says you must do the same thing in every situation.

It is clearly material and affects a game when attacking winger/nine/flanker whoever looks down blindside and all they can see is chummy blocking the gap in an offside position. Chummy has made his offside material just by being there - he has affected the game by cutting down the attacking sides chioces unfairly. Using my rule of thumb the ball carrier was affected because he couldn't go blind because of chummy. Chummy is duly noted as a malfeasant and advantage played. But at a ruck with slow ball the openside winger 40m away on other side of the park wanders offside you call "Eleven, back foot" he waves/nods, trots back, play on, immaterial innit?

At L12/L11 someone in a helicopter armed with a straight edge could probably spot an offside at a high percentage of rucks mauls and scrums in every game. We only 'do' the ones who are offside and then do something to affect the game. This is viewed as inconsistent by the touch line. The touch line need to wise up.

Simon Griffiths
26-10-07, 15:10
Completely agree newboy. I had an instance in my match last Wednesday when a player came round the side (all the way round). I told him to get back and he did. Attacking side cocked it up so I gave a PK. A quick glance over to the player, "Number seven, you came in at the side, thank you for retiring, but you had affected play." He nodded in agreement. Essentially he'd slowed up the scrum-half getting ball (by nudging one of the attacking players off-balance and into the scrum-half) - only slowed it by a second or two, but it gave his defence chance to organise.

Padster
26-10-07, 16:10
Just a FYI as it appears many do not know this, in Continuum (RFU U7-U12) matches once the gap exceeds 30 points you must stop the game.

The RFU considers continuing at that point to be a breach of the Duty of Care to the kids involved.

Thanks for that as I had missed it. I rarely referee U12 and even then it is in festival format so I have never seen a team score 30 points in just the few minutes a side they have.

Paddy

didds
28-10-07, 00:10
from what the OP said I can see a food reason for ngiving a PT from 70metres out then! ( ie offside #15 kicking ball away etc).

i am being (half) facaetious.

didds

ex-lucy
06-11-07, 15:11
I was heavily criticised last year for YC'ing the (heavily) losing skipper for his 3rd killing the ball - at that point they were maybe 50 down in a L10 (ish) 2nd team game...

The away side turned up with 10 - had 4 lent them and played - the watching Northern Fed guy (very well regarded in our Soc) said what I did was ridiculous and that there had been no need for it as it had no material effect...

damned if you do ... and damned if you dont ..
depends on the context.
i admonish alot more this season and YC less.
and i seem to be doing better according to the powers that be ... as a player i hated this .. "if he's offside ping him" and if the ref didnt then i would get frustrated which meant a punch or two when i next met that flanker because he would do it again and again with only an admonishment from the ref each time. so i resorted to off the ball stuff to impede him ... see how it escalates ...
anyway, that was then .. and now i do what i am told ....