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View Full Version : Advancing mark and quick one etc.. Mk II



Greg Collins
16-11-07, 09:11
These two are supplementary to http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4712

Blue vs Red.

a) Penalty awarded to Blue, Red mouth off, you are marching them back 10 but have not yet got 10m (I walk slowly :sad: ) and have not made the mark. Can Blue take a quick one from the first mark?

b) Penalty awarded to Blue, Red player not 10m tackles Blue ball carrier who knocks on - no advantage, you move to advance the mark but have not yet got there and have not made the second mark. Can Blue take a quick one from the first mark?

PaulDG
16-11-07, 10:11
Blue vs Red.

a) Penalty awarded to Blue, Red mouth off, you are marching them back 10 but have not yet got 10m (I walk slowly :sad: ) and have not made the mark. Can Blue take a quick one from the first mark?

No. You have stopped play for an offence and have not made a mark for it yet.


b) Penalty awarded to Blue, Red player not 10m tackles Blue ball carrier who knocks on - no advantage, you move to advance the mark but have not yet got there and have not made the second mark. Can Blue take a quick one from the first mark?

No, see above.

AndyKidd
16-11-07, 10:11
21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or
anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a
penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line,
the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the
place of infringement.

I would say in each case they cannot take the quick one as you describe. The simple reason being is you haven't made a mark for the new infringement. Remembering that in each case it is a new offence and requires a new penalty and a new mark.

(So next time I get called away from my desk I'll refresh before posting :) )

Simon Thomas
16-11-07, 11:11
Agree totally with Andy and PaulDG.

But it is an 'urban myth' that the second FK / PK cannot be taken quickly. It can be taken as soon as the referee's mark is made and this should be done as quickly, but in line with your match management needs at the time.

The higher the level of match, the quicker the referee will tend to make the second mark, and be expected to by both the players (attacking & defending) and if present the referee coach-adviser-assessor.

ex-lucy
16-11-07, 11:11
a gentle warning Greg, an assessor/ advisor at your (our) level would want to see match management in these situations ..rather than quick play action (i have been warned a few times) so, pragmatically i wouldnt allow it and would slow matters down and call the tapper back ... then wait until defence is lined up and back 10 and then warn tapper not to take too quickly in future and wait for my mark, then make my mark and say 'play'.
in a colts match with no assessor i allow quick pens w/out me actually digging a hole in the turf depending on the context i.e. not for foul play where i want a word.
But i advise prematch that the tap had better be in close vicinity to where i would have made the mark (and made correctly) or i will call the play back. "it is your judgement".

FlipFlop
16-11-07, 11:11
Best advice I've been given is to WALK the 10m, and make the mark. Let the kick go as soon as you make the mark. If the defence can't run 10m in the time it takes me to walk 10, more fool them. Why wait for the defence to be lined up? Why give them that benefit when they've infringed?

Simon Thomas
16-11-07, 11:11
ex-Lucy

I regard it is as a dangerous practice to allow any primary or subsequent FK/PK without your mark being made

a) what happens when you bring them back on subsequent occasions, as you have a real managment need (e.g. player warning) - "you let me go last time sir" - you are losing player respect

b) are you covering up fior the players reactions and speed is faster than yours ?

ex-lucy
16-11-07, 23:11
2 good points Simon .. must rethink this ...

beckett50
17-11-07, 10:11
Use it as oart of your pre-match chat to the scrum half. Tell him that if he is unsure of whether you have made the mark to ask you "Yes or No?!".

That way you have enunciated your requirements and put the onus on the player to ensure compliance.

Of course, if you are marching the oppo back the required 10m the chances are the #9 will be at your heel like a terrier wanting to go and waiting for your "OK 9, now!" as you make the mark.:)

Deeps
17-11-07, 11:11
Use it as part of your pre-match chat...

I speak to front rows and then skipper's only; I regard it as the skippers' duty to pass the word and inappropriate to brief player's individually. It helps preserve top down management and is your support and respect for the skipper's authority also.

My brief to skippers includes' ...scrum halves - ball in quickly and straight please, tap penalties where I can see them but only after I have given you the mark and then within a metre of that mark please. I may delay giving the mark until players are back on their feet.'

Davet
19-11-07, 14:11
I would usually allow a quick tap from the initial penalty, even without my having made a mark. There is no requirement in Law for me to make a mark in that case - the place of the mark is defined in Law, and all should know where it is.

Generally I would only pull it back is if it is taken away from that place, or from behind my back (briefing says no pks where i can't see 'em, I need to see it from the mark and kicked properly) - or if have a management issue - which would probably need to be a Card. Admonishment can usually wait till next breakdown.

Second penalty after advancing 10 - on the other hand - is mandated in Law that the ref must make a mark. So make it at the pace which the game deserves.

If I really need to talk to some-one then I can always turn my back...

Simon Thomas
19-11-07, 15:11
Well after Dwayne Peel's quick one while Lol was gobbing off, it appears anywhere on the pitch will do to take it, let alone 'within a dustbin lid please', as we used to be told by refs.

Greg Collins
19-11-07, 17:11
briefing says no pks where i can't see 'em, I need to see it from the mark and kicked properly

Is it excessively mean of me to wait until after the first post quick FK/PK tackle takes place before I call them back for the scrum?

PeterH
19-11-07, 18:11
lol @ greg

I watched the difference in approach with interest in the HC over the weekend on SKY..
Rolland - let 'em run it
White - very strict on mark and control of all set pieces and restarts

Obviously Mr Barnes likes the S14 approach so dislikes Mr W's approach - I think both approaches are valid if consistently applied.

I personally try to start like Mr R and only move to Mr W if the players start to get a bit gobby/over-aggressive and I want to cool it a bit...

I do tell the skippers this in the 1 minute brief :)

Dixie
19-11-07, 19:11
'within a dustbin lid please', as we used to be told by refs.
Please Sir -what's a dustbin lid?

dave_clark
19-11-07, 21:11
Well after Dwayne Peel's quick one while Lol was gobbing off

served him right i reckon. although i'm sure that the ref didn't let it go for that reason :)