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Greg Collins
16-11-07, 09:11
19.9 (m) Blocking the throw in. A lineout player must not stand less than 5 metres from the touchline. A lineout player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5 metres. Penalty: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Red vs Blue. Red have throw to line out. in an attempted move Red jumper at four breaks off and comes to front of line out, crosses 5m line and collects throw well in front of 5m line. First three line out players didn't move an inch away from 5m so he had nowhere else to go.

Fair to ping him under 19.9 (m) or not? I thought so, Red coach didn't. My take was he deliberately prevent ball from travelling 5m so in my book 19.6 (a) didn't apply

ex-lucy
16-11-07, 10:11
i agree, FK, in 15m

Deeps
16-11-07, 10:11
Fair to ping him under 19.9 (m) or not? I thought so, Red coach didn't.

Greg, so what did the Red coach think should have happened?

Dixie
16-11-07, 10:11
Greg, so what did the Red coach think should have happened? Scrum or throw option, presumably, under 19.6. We've had this discussion before, but I personally don't draw a distinction between the throwing side preventing it going 5m and the oppo doing it. I view prevention as a deliberate act by which the 5m is frustrated - as I would interpret this to be. If the front jumpers just reach across the line marginally, I tend to go with the option under 19.6.

Greg Collins
16-11-07, 13:11
Red coach wanted me to play 19.6, scrum or throw, Blue ball rather than Blue FK 15m in.

I keep 19.6 for the situations Dixie has described above where it's all a bit marginal or unintentional

Davet
16-11-07, 13:11
I have generally viewed this sort of infringement by the throwing side as caused by poor timing and confusion and would normally offer the option to the opposition.

If its the opposition who actively stop the ball travelling then I FK them.

But it's not hard and fast - if the throwers are taking the p then they may well get FK'ed.

Dixie
16-11-07, 14:11
If its the opposition who actively stop the ball travelling then I FK them. ... But it's not hard and fast - if the throwers are taking the p then they may well get FK'ed.
Davet, I normally find myself firmly in your camp on the contentious issues, but this isn't one of those times. Equity demands that both sides get the same treatment for the same action. Neither is allowed to prevent the ball going 5m, and I see no justification for treating the oppo more harshly than the throwing side.

David J.
16-11-07, 16:11
Just reread 19.6 and 19.9 (m) and I've never realized the difference. At an intentional not 5, say where the first player reaches across the line to beat his oppo, that's an option scrum/lineout. But where a player deliberately blocks the throw that's a free kick. Interesting.

I don't think that's a point appreciated by the local referees. I can't think of having ever seen a deliberate block (except for some misguided souls at a quick), but many of the not 5s I have seen called resulted in a free kick.

I'd say in this example a free kick is fine, but under 19.7 (h). It's likely the player crossed the 5m before the ball was thrown.

Padster
16-11-07, 16:11
I agree with Davet as teams I referee are rarely skilful enough to deliberately go inside the 5m. The opposition getting someone in the way is usually deliberate.

As you saw it as deliberate Greg then you made the correct decision. You were right anyway as you were the ref :D

David J.
16-11-07, 17:11
Upon further review, it doesn't look like the defending team can violate 19.6, it's an offense only the throwing team can commit. So if the ball doesn't go 5m because of an action by a defensive player, the only option is a FK.

I agree with Davet and Padster.

Davet
19-11-07, 13:11
Dixie - I do see a difference between timing/positional incompetence, and "prevention"

Otherwise what's the point of the difference in law? Every not 5 is because the ball in some way "prevented" travelling 5. Even is it's simply the hooker preventing it it doing so by throwing badly.

Yet the Law has 2 sanctions....

Account Deleted
25-11-07, 19:11
Scrum or throw option, presumably, under 19.6. We've had this discussion before, but I personally don't draw a distinction between the throwing side preventing it going 5m and the oppo doing it. I view prevention as a deliberate act by which the 5m is frustrated - as I would interpret this to be. If the front jumpers just reach across the line marginally, I tend to go with the option under 19.6.

I had this recently (U12). I went for the scrum and a word to the jumper that it was "close" to a FK. He listened and took it on board and none of his team reacted to him costing them distance.

Game was a credit to both sides and great skills!