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Will.Q
24-11-07, 21:11
Blue V Purple today. Purple win 105-3, a complete mis-match. Purple disciplined and respectful of decisions I made, regardless of whether they agreed or not, no dissent. Blue the complete opposite, disputing nearly every call I made.

Pre match I do my pre-match brief. First thing I said to Blue was "Hi fellas, I've not reffed you before, so thank you for welcoming me to your club. My first point is discipline. Everything through your skipper please. If you come straight to me to, you'll be penalised." I then go through the rest. I therefore feel they were more than clear as to the repercussions of any dissent.

Around 10 minutes in, purple have ball in a ruck. Blue ruck over, turn the ball over but knock forward. Purple pick up ball, set up a maul. Maul comes to nothing, I award a scrum for advantage for the original knock on. Blue 4 questions this and shouts at me "you can't have a maul from a ruck." I whistled and said dissent, penalty, back 10 please. Blue 4 continues to argue, I moved forward ten slowly, get there, he argues again, I move forward 10, he argues again, another 10. By this time his team are going nuts at him. I call the blue skipper over and say "I asked you to control your teams discipline before the match and asked your team to go through you. I am now telling you." He accepts this and the match goes on.

Few minutes later, blue 4 questions another decision by ranting at me. Cards come out, yellow shown, 10 minutes under the posts please. I asked, told, penalised. When blue 4 returns to the field, I call him over and say "I'd like to keep you on the field today. Work with me please on this issue and go through your skipper.

Second half. Blue 4 screaming at me as play is in progress about purple off-side lines and what he deems to be crossing. This continues for a while. At next breakdown I warn blue 4 and his skipper that blue 4 is on tthe thinnest of thin ice and my options are being seriously limited and requesst he goes through his skipper. 71 minutes blue 12 tackles purple ball carrier, both go to ground, blue rolls presents ball in tackle. Blue 4 comes in from the side, not through the gate and picks up the ball in tackle situation. I whistle, arm in the air for a penalty and say "offside, not coming through the gate blue 4." Blue 4 rants and screams at me. I blow the whistle, call him over with his skipper. As my hand goes to my pocket blue 4 walks off knowing what is coming. I produce a yellow card, state 2nd yellow, then produce the red. Skipper has no complaints.

2 questions please guys.
1) Was I right to issue a second yellow which makes a red or should I have just issued an instant red?
2) Did I accept too much dissent? In the second half at the first time he dissented, should I have sent him off then?

Also, any tips for controlling such ridiculous players?

Gareth-Lee Smith
24-11-07, 21:11
1) You were absolutely correct. A second yellow is shown before that YC becomes a Red in this instance.

2) Perhaps you did, perhaps you didn't. I'd say you didn't, though - you told us of the mismatch and your wish to keep 15 men on the park. Quite noble. It wasn't abuse of the highest order, but it did affect the game and if Blue had been more naive they would've come down to #4's level.

Sounds like good management to me. Sounds like a bad situation dealt with well.

Will.Q
24-11-07, 21:11
Well, a few of them started to get on my back. One incident in particular made me feel quite uncomfortable. In the last few minutes blue 5 had started to pipe up a little but I had managed to manage the situation well enough. At 80 minutes bang on I blow the whistle as the ball goes dead, full time thank you gentlemen. Blue 5 walks straight past me and says, as he gets near to me, really loudly and aggressively "what a f****ng joke."

Thoughts?

David J.
24-11-07, 21:11
I think calling a penalty for dissent, then moving it up 3 times for the same offense is overkill and underkill at the same time. If Red isn't taking a quick tap on the first penalty, I'd move it up once, but before I do, I'd call the captains and the offending player over then and there, giving Blue time to calm his temper and letting the three know that repeated offenses are YC'able.

OB..
24-11-07, 21:11
Agree with David J. March once, but if the offence continues, stop and talk. Maybe YC, maybe one more 10.

Otherwise my only comment concerns "offside, not coming through the gate blue 4." There is no offside at a tackle (not yet, anyway).

But I think we are nit-picking. Bad luck to meet such an idiot. Well done dealing with him.

Deeps
24-11-07, 22:11
Well done Will; a difficult situation by the sound of it which you managed well. We all get games like this one from time to time and face that agonising moment when we think we should have done something about it 5 minutes ago.

For what it is worth, I think that it helps to take a very firm stance initially. Jump on anything quickly and firmly in the first 10 minutes or so rather than hoping things will get better as, invariably, they will not.

Do not shy from a yellow card during this period either. I have mentioned this before but at one of our training meetings, a colleague of mine in the Society ventured that he had struggled to keep everyone on the field the previous Saturday and had worked very hard to get the game flowing. He wondered whether a YC in the first ten minutes would have helped and resolved in the future to conscientiously consider whether an early YC would benefit the rest of the game. As far as I know he still applies this philosophy which I admit I have used to advantage on occasions.

didds
24-11-07, 23:11
"what a f****ng joke."

Thoughts?

was he talking to you? Definitetly?

Players who have been totally STUFFED (rightly or wrongly) speak to themselves and nobody at times...

what level was this game?

didds

didds
24-11-07, 23:11
Blue V Purple today. Purple win 105-3, a complete mis-match. Purple disciplined and respectful of decisions I made, regardless of whether they agreed or not, no dissent.

WADR it is "easier" for teams that are finding it EASY to take the "tough" calls on the chin. I really wouldn't read too much into a side winning by a ton never querying decisions as meaning a lot. After all ... they are gonna score again within 45 minutes aren't they ?(e.g 100 points = 15 tries = 1 try every 5 minutes... ... ish).

<B>Blue the complete opposite, disputing nearly every call I made.</B>


more understandable... albeit ONLY just. After 20 minutes (MAX) of a 100 point drubbing it is DENIAL of the highest order !



Around 10 minutes in, purple have ball in a ruck. Blue ruck over, turn the ball over but knock forward. Purple pick up ball, set up a maul. Maul comes to nothing, I award a scrum for advantage for the original knock on. Blue 4 questions this and shouts at me "you can't have a maul from a ruck." I whistled and said dissent, penalty, back 10 please.


10 minutes in.

Was this the FIRST such altercation/discussion of views? If so... I think you were draconian and unsympathetic... based on information provided.

Certainly worth a "chat" of course... but 10 minutes is a long time in a game (playing) especially if you are under the cosh (100 point win intimating it is)

Caveat: level of game.


didds

SimonSmith
25-11-07, 00:11
Didds - not sure I agree with you here, for a variety of reasons.

First, the fact that it'd the first ten minutes is a red herring, and in fact would lend weight to the argument that you think about nailing this stuff as soon as it rears its ugly head.

Which bot do you have a problem with? The penalty, or the marching back? I think both are justified, within the confines of what we're told.

I think that there are ways of managing it however. ANd let me add here, not for the benefit of the idiot, but for others. Here's what I'd suggest. Blow it up. Call 4 and the skipper over then. Make it clear with body language and signs that what happened is unacceptable, and that there will be repercussions if it happens again.

It draws attention to it. Just standing there with your arm in the air can run the risk of making it look like "just" another offence.
If gives you a chance to work your mojo with the player; if he's an idiot, then standing dismissively can aggravate the situation. CAlling him over lets tempers start to calm, and you can make your point in person.

I'd suggest that looking autocratic and like a martinet can work against you.

didds
25-11-07, 00:11
First, the fact that it'd the first ten minutes is a red herring, and in fact would lend weight to the argument that you think about nailing this stuff as soon as it rears its ugly head.

Which bot do you have a problem with? The penalty, or the marching back? I think both are justified, within the confines of what we're told.

I think that there are ways of managing it however.



managing is the operative word. IF it was the first "time" at a low enough level (and the chances are going by comments here that is was below level 7)
then a PK straight off is - IMO - well OTT. Ave a word FIRST. Just blowing a whistle after TEN minutes of (presumably/possibly) decent play is well OTT.

YMMV -)




ANd let me add here, not for the benefit of the idiot, but for others. Here's what I'd suggest. Blow it up. Call 4 and the skipper over then. Make it clear with body language and signs that what happened is unacceptable, and that there will be repercussions if it happens again.

THAT is management - and I agree 100%

level of game notwithstanding.



It draws attention to it. Just standing there with your arm in the air can run the risk of making it look like "just" another offence.


and looking like an officious twat!
[/QUOTE}


I'd suggest that looking autocratic and like a martinet can work against you.

a far more eloquent version of what I was attempting to say!

didds

Emmet Murphy
25-11-07, 01:11
Will - out of interest did you have to play for the full 80 minutes? With a lot of the merit leagues I ref in there is a maxium score of 40-50 points (I'm the same grade as yourself so maybe yours are like this to?)

Will.Q
25-11-07, 09:11
I'll answer the questions given.

Didds - sorry you feel I was draconian and unsympathetic. As I new ref, after a nights sleep and reflection, I feel I handled it well. He had blurted at me a few times in the 10 or so minutes leading up to his yellow card and I didn't YC him at the offence of the knock on from the ruck/maul scenario. Not sure how I can be unsympathetic for giving him a YC after a number of warnings, but I'll take your point and hopefully learn from it.

Level 10, Somerset II. Purple was a v.good side and could hold their own at L.8. Blue a poor level 10 will probably get relegated and play L.10 next season. It was a full league game so I had no option but to play the full 80 minutes, otherwise I'd of canned it once it got stupid.

Re the f***ing joke comment; It was 100% defo aimed at me. This player had, around 5 minutes to go, disputed a decision I made on his 5m line and threw the ball wildly into the ground and shouted at me. At the final whistle, he aimed it right at me, it was very deliberate. I'm fast learning that a losing side, at lower levels, need a scapegoat, which is usually the referee. My changing room was right next to Blue's and I could hear them whinging about me when I was getting changed (this was 20 minutes after full time as well as I'd done my warm down.) I found it amusing that a side who had 6 players turn up 10 minutes before kick off, 9 players not warming up properly but all taking pop shots at the goal, two on the field smoking before the match etc, then take a 100 point hiding and think still have the balls to try and blame the referee for their predicament.

PaulDG
25-11-07, 09:11
Didds - sorry you feel I was draconian and unsympathetic. As I new ref, after a nights sleep and reflection, I feel I handled it well. He had blurted at me a few times in the 10 or so minutes leading up to his yellow card and I didn't YC him at the offence of the knock on from the ruck/maul scenario. Not sure how I can be unsympathetic for giving him a YC after a number of warnings, but I'll take your point and hopefully learn from it.

Level 10, Somerset II. Purple was a v.good side and could hold their own at L.8. Blue a poor level 10 will probably get relegated and play L.10 next season. It was a full league game so I had no option but to play the full 80 minutes, otherwise I'd of canned it once it got stupid.

With this context, I think you handled it well. At our level, there's a continuous problem of working out who's taking the game seriously and wants to progress, who's out for a Saturday run round and doesn't like golf and who's just there for a fight.

At Level 10, I'd suggest the "nothing happens accidentally" adage applies more often than not. Whereas with, say, the level 13 game I did yesterday, well, almost nothing happened deliberately.

(And it was bl**dy cold too!)

(BTW, was it league or Merit Table? If MT, you don't have to play on once the captains have decided they've had enough.)

beckett50
25-11-07, 10:11
Your patience before issuing the red was laudable.

I go with PaulDG, in that I don't feel you were too harsh.

With regard to the post-match comment it may be worth chatting with your regional referee manager about it and get him to talk to the Club on an advisory basis. It may be that the Club has a history of this, or it may be a one off. Either way the hierarchy need to know, so that - if anything - the next referee can be forewarned.

Simon Thomas
25-11-07, 12:11
With regard to the post-match comment it may be worth chatting with your regional referee manager about it and get him to talk to the Club on an advisory basis. It may be that the Club has a history of this, or it may be a one off. Either way the hierarchy need to know, so that - if anything - the next referee can be forewarned.

Raise it with your Society President (Mel Hillman) , of Chair of Appts Committee (Davoid Smith). It isn't really something the RFU's Regional Referee Manager would get involved in - he would just pass it back to be dealt with 'in County'.

Davet
25-11-07, 13:11
Some of these L10 L11 players have been around a loonngg time. Sometimes they do actually know some of the laws - like it being illegal to turn a ruck into a maul. Sometimes however they misapply them, or their assessment of a situation differs from ours.

As described, my first instinct would be to simply ask him to be quiet - I actually find a simply putting a forefinger vertically to my lips works, if the query goes on then i would simply suggest "We'll discuss it later, in the bar - but for now lets just play rugby".

That said - persistence on his part will find the relationship heading rapidly downhill, so I would penalise for dissent when he continured talking after my offer to discuss over a beer. Then 10m. Then YC.

I don't recommend marching him back ad-infinitum for dissent. Go once, then get serious.

peperami
25-11-07, 17:11
Well, a few of them started to get on my back. One incident in particular made me feel quite uncomfortable. In the last few minutes blue 5 had started to pipe up a little but I had managed to manage the situation well enough. At 80 minutes bang on I blow the whistle as the ball goes dead, full time thank you gentlemen. Blue 5 walks straight past me and says, as he gets near to me, really loudly and aggressively "what a f****ng joke."

Thoughts?

Red card straight away.

Foul and abusive and aggressive.

Ben

AndyKidd
25-11-07, 20:11
"what a f****ng joke."

Thoughts?


Come on lads...... benifit of the doubt to blue 5 .... surely he was talking about his own teams skill level.

didds
25-11-07, 22:11
I'll answer the questions given.

Didds - sorry you feel I was draconian and unsympathetic. As I new ref, after a nights sleep and reflection, I feel I handled it well. He had blurted at me a few times in the 10 or so minutes leading up to his yellow card and I didn't YC him at the offence of the knock on from the ruck/maul scenario. Not sure how I can be unsympathetic for giving him a YC after a number of warnings, but I'll take your point and hopefully learn from it.



ahhh... different scenario NOW! You hadn't mentioned that he'd had history and you HAD warned. With THAT information, what you did was FINE. Your OP however appeared to me to suggest that after ten minutes of no issues he made one comment and you YCd him.

Hopefully you can se what I mean.


I found it amusing that a side who had 6 players turn up 10 minutes before kick off, 9 players not warming up properly but all taking pop shots at the goal, two on the field smoking before the match etc, then take a 100 point hiding and think still have the balls to try and blame the referee for their predicament.

I couldn't agree more with you!

didds

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 11:11
could you have asked the capt to replace blue 4 bec he was 'injured'?

instead of 3x 10m walks, could you have brought skipper and blue 4 together for a chat and quietly spoken to both about the situation as it was (losing heavily but still unacceptable) and how it might get worse if he continues and to just get on and play rugby?

something i use which i think works nicely so far: "pls dont advise me how to referee'