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ex-lucy
26-11-07, 10:11
here's one i have borrowed ....

red 22m drop out.
red 7 in front of kicker.
"red 7 stop". Red 7 stops. I then look away at other players.
blue 12 catches ball and red 7, presumably restarted and not been put onside, tackles blue 12.

penalty to blue on 22m.

OB..
26-11-07, 11:11
Law 13.16 (a) All the kickerís team must be behind the ball when it is kicked. If not, a scrum is formed at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 11:11
no advantage from player in front of kicker?
adv played ... plaeyr still materially affected play ..
pen for dissent for not obeying 'stop' instruction?

Bryan
26-11-07, 11:11
The referee is clutching at straws. Advantage would apply, but assuming Red 7 is close enough to tackle the Blue 12, you would stop playing advantage.

The PK "for dissent for not obeying 'stop' instruction" is a joke. The referee should admit he/she had a brainfart, buy Red 7 a beer, and remember not to make the same mistake again. Taking the high-and-mighty road on this is ill-advised and will not gain a referee any respect.

Simon Thomas
26-11-07, 11:11
Poor decision making in Law, poor judgement and bad match management - referee needs to get his act together.

Red 7 ahead, called to stop (why warn him, it is his and kickers problem not referee to coach them ?), red 7 carries on when ref looking elsewhere - so blow immediately and scrum back.

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 12:11
level 5 match .......

Andyr8603
26-11-07, 12:11
Level 5! Am in shock...

Greg Collins
26-11-07, 13:11
Level 5! you are joking.....

truck'n'trailor
26-11-07, 13:11
Who told you about the scenario? Was it the ref himself? Where was the game?

Simon Thomas
26-11-07, 13:11
Level 5 - gulp. So he is a Group referee. I would love to see the DVD to see exactly what happened.

Shades of "third or fourth hand" distorting the facts ?

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 14:11
nope, (group) ref himself gave it us as an anecdote .. and asked what we'd do in similar situation.
i said i would shout "wait" (not stop) and if he didnt wait then call advantage and "leave it red 7"... then if he persisted a pen.
others said call scrum straight away.
but it is possible to take a drop out with men in front as long as they dont get involved in next phase ... so i am giving him a chance not to get involved.

truck'n'trailor
26-11-07, 14:11
Personally, would call them back for the scrum once call to the player had failed.
Was this a Herts Group ref?

Simon Thomas
26-11-07, 14:11
At level 5 that is South East Group ! Not a County Society or even a Federation - it's the level below National Panel.

truck'n'trailor
26-11-07, 14:11
I think it would be a Midlands Group ref if he was a Herts lad, hence the question.

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 15:11
PTC was party to the conversation (as in he was there in body) so he may be able to confirm the veracity of the scenario ... but i'm sure i havnt missed anything.
one thing that strikes me though is why the shock?
for me it was at best a 50/50 decision ... ref was trying to give red 7 the benefit of the doubt. trying to not whistle. trying to keep ball flowing etc ... didnt quite work but why the shock?

Bryan
26-11-07, 15:11
Red 7 ahead, called to stop (why warn him, it is his and kickers problem not referee to coach them ?)
Simon, why would you NOT prevent it if you felt it could be done? Much like the winger ahead of the kicker that is told to stop and retreat, the same case could be made at kick-offs and restarts to prevent stoppages and prevent players having a material effect on play if they were far enough away (and the kick was launched far enough forward).

To question why should use preventative statements b/c it's not "our problem" as referees does nothing to help the game. Would you rather I NOT tell the backs creeping offside to move back onside, thus preventing awarding a penalty?

Since when were you an advocate of playing "Gotcha"?

truck'n'trailor
26-11-07, 15:11
I think the peculiar call is the "pen for dissent for not obeying 'stop' instruction" - that would be quite a difficult call to 'sell' at L5, I would have thought, bearing in mind the call for the offence is scrum, and ref has gifted 3 points (by the sounds of it)

Greg Collins
26-11-07, 15:11
exactly

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 17:11
t'n't: ah, i geddit. and yes .. someone then quoted a previous statement that "we shouldnt be in the business of deciding matches for players. Let them decide matches for themselves with voluntary offences. Dont give match deciding pens in the last 10 mins of a match unless you are 70% sure."
it was nil nil at the time to make it 3 nil. i think the level 5 ref was suitably chastised and embarrassed that he brought it up hmself in a room full of refs.

beckett50
26-11-07, 18:11
I have given a PK for such an infringement. I was being assessed at the time and the assessor agreed with my reaction at the time.

Seemed like we both made the jump that the play was a deliberate act of foul play and so warranted a PK, not the option of scrum.

OB..
26-11-07, 19:11
The penalty for being in front of a drop out is specifically set as a scrum.

If you are going to give a penalty, it has to be because you have identified a different offence. In that case the penalty will be at the spot of the foul.

"Failing to stop" sounds more like a motoring offence than a rugby one.

Account Deleted
27-11-07, 08:11
Deliberate ofending always has the "upgrade "option does it not {10.2 (a)}? I would say that if we used it almost every case of not straight into a scrum would cause a penalty mind (that's if we bothered to call not straight in the first place).

Greg Collins
27-11-07, 11:11
I have given a PK for such an infringement. I was being assessed at the time and the assessor agreed with my reaction at the time.

Seemed like we both made the jump that the play was a deliberate act of foul play and so warranted a PK, not the option of scrum.

I gave a penalty kick from a restart kick once under similar wilful "failure to stop" circumstances. Advisor/Assessor/Observer present on touch line comments on same are best summarised as "you're havin' a laugh ain't you? Go read your law book you stupid boy". Haven't done it since though have been sorely tempted more than a few times.

Surely, if given, the PK would have to be where chummy first failed to heed your exhortations and only then if it was material....?

PeterH
27-11-07, 13:11
In my game last weekend (U17) where the props wouldn't engage properly...
The pack were offside at first 2 kicks (start and a 22m)...
I had told kicker the first time to ensure HE got them onside...
So I gave scrum on 22m...
Combined with same team's FR inability to listen... meant virtually a FK to oppo every time the other side had a KO!!!

4 times in 1 game - I asked and asked... they looked at me blankly when I told them it was standard to be behind the kicker and all muttered to themselves darkly :confused:

tim White
27-11-07, 16:11
As long as they are behind the ball I'm happy. But I hate players, dogs and children who take the p*ss:mad: