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Greg Collins
26-11-07, 13:11
see thread http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4765

OKAY so my self confidence may be misplaced!!! I therefore submit my situation to the court of rugbyrefs opinion.

Blue vs Red

Blue hoist a long high touch kick from a left field ruck inside their own 22. The ball carried on the wind travels forward nearly 50m. Red fullback stands with a foot in touch waiting to play the ball which has not crossed the plane of the touchline (ok I admit I was ball watching as I ran towards the landing zone) and, because the ball is hanging up there, I've managed to get myself right out on the touch line and am running parallel to it towards red FB. TJ (not a team of three of course but a fairly clued up and honest young son of the blue #8 I've used as TJ, and reffed, before) is right behind the Red fullback.

Ball comes down still not having crossed plane of touch, full back still with one foot in touch one infield knocks/swats/bats the ball further infield towards waiting winger. Touch judge flags it as out "Play on!" I yell. Furious crowd of 10 erupt in anger that the Society has such incompetants within their ranks. Blue, knowing me well and understanding they will get pinged to oblivion if they dispute my calls, correct or otherwise, keep quiet, Red shake themselves from their shock and play on only to knock on two passes later.

So was that ball in touch or not? I thought Red FB had to catch it for it to be touch....

Afters - First chance I got I apologised to touch judge for having over ruled him, if only to keep him on my side as it were - it seemed a sound thing to do - I said I may have been wrong.

Post match, more experienced ref told me, in a +ve way, I was wrong on two counts a) don't ever over rule a TJ unless they are obvisouly biased in which case replace them and b) it was in touch so why didn't you give it?

Jacko
26-11-07, 13:11
You were right. End of.

ex-lucy
26-11-07, 13:11
3rd set of photos, scenario 6, no?
text says "no" to "in touch?" ...

PaulDG
26-11-07, 13:11
So was that ball in touch or not?

No.


Post match, more experienced ref told me, in a +ve way, I was wrong on two counts a) don't ever over rule a TJ unless they are obvisouly biased in which case replace them

He has a point there.


and b) it was in touch so why didn't you give it?

And there he doesn't.

FlipFlop
26-11-07, 13:11
If the ball didn't cross the plane of touch, and the red player didn't catch the ball, play on.

So good call.

AndyKidd
26-11-07, 14:11
Law 19

DEFINITIONS
‘Kicked directly into touch’ means that the ball was kicked into touch
without landing on the playing area, and without touching a player or
the referee.
‘The 22’ is the area between the goal line and the 22-metre line,
including the 22-metre line but excluding the goal line.
The line of touch is an imaginary line in the field of play at right angles
to the touchline through the place where the ball is thrown in.
The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it
touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the
touchline.
The ball is in touch when a player is carrying it and the ball carrier (or
the ball) touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
The place where the ball carrier (or the ball) touched or crossed the
touchline is where it went into touch.
The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a
foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and
holds the ball, the ball is in touch.
If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by
a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch
or touch-in-goal. Such a player may knock the ball into the playing
area.
If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the
playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided
it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the
touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

I would say based, on your description of events, that you were correct in your call.

OB..
26-11-07, 15:11
Yes, your call was correct.
Yes, you were right to over-rule the TJ (explain it to him later). I don't see why the TJ should get away with an error at the cost of one of the teams.

tim White
26-11-07, 16:11
see thread http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4765

Post match, more experienced ref told me, in a +ve way, I was wrong on two counts a) don't ever over rule a TJ unless they are obvisouly biased in which case replace them and b) it was in touch so why didn't you give it?

I would suggest that you don't ever over rule a touch judge unless you are certain he was incorrect; :wow: Then you always do it; :nono: AND THEN if you think he is biased remove him:Looser:

AndyKidd
26-11-07, 16:11
Post match, more experienced ref told me, in a +ve way, I was wrong on two counts a) don't ever over rule a TJ unless they are obvisouly biased in which case replace them and b) it was in touch so why didn't you give it?

Just for your more experienced Refs digestion


6.B.3 CONTROL OF TOUCH JUDGES
The referee has control over both touch judges. The referee may
tell them what their duties are, and may overrule their decisions.
If a touch judge is unsatisfactory the referee may ask that the touch
judge be replaced.

Account Deleted
27-11-07, 08:11
Good call!

chopper15
27-11-07, 08:11
Ref; Greg Collins;Ball comes down still not having crossed plane of touch, full back still with one foot in touch one infield knocks/swats/bats the ball further infield towards waiting winger.


If he had badly fumbled that ball before securely holding it (feet still unmoved), whose throw would it be?

Dickie E
27-11-07, 09:11
Ref; Greg Collins;Ball comes down still not having crossed plane of touch, full back still with one foot in touch one infield knocks/swats/bats the ball further infield towards waiting winger.


If he had badly fumbled that ball before securely holding it (feet still unmoved), whose throw would it be?

His throw

Dickie E
27-11-07, 09:11
Just for your more experienced Refs digestion


6.B.3 CONTROL OF TOUCH JUDGES
The referee has control over both touch judges. The referee may
tell them what their duties are, and may overrule their decisions.
If a touch judge is unsatisfactory the referee may ask that the touch
judge be replaced.

This is true however I have been on the receiving end of being over-ruled by the ref (for the record I was right and he was wrong). It isn't pleasant and exposes you to the cat-calls of the dickheads behind you for the rest of the game.

In my view, maintaining the credibility of the TJ is more important than getting the call accurate unless it is a "critical incident".

PaulDG
27-11-07, 09:11
Just for your more experienced Refs digestion


6.B.3 CONTROL OF TOUCH JUDGES
The referee has control over both touch judges. The referee may
tell them what their duties are, and may overrule their decisions.
If a touch judge is unsatisfactory the referee may ask that the touch
judge be replaced.

Andy, as you know this is very context dependent.

If I was running touch as part of a team of 3, I'd know very well that I'm there to advise the ref and to support him running his match, not to undermine him. (Actually, of course, I know that even if I'm just running touch at a U7s match and the dad in the middle with a whistle is making a complete mockery of the mini Tag variations..)

But the guy who picks up the flag at a club sees himself as doing everyone a favour - and if you p*ss him off, he'll never do it again. In fact he'll probably drop his flag and walk over to any other spectators and join them in sledging the ref.

So yes, as a point of Law, the TJ can be overruled. Yes, as a point of game management, the qualified/experienced TJ knows this and knows the etiquette.

But at Old Wangonians 4ths on a cold Saturday in November, what's really the right thing to do? Do you honestly help the temper of game by having the guy with the flag storm off in a huff?

beckett50
27-11-07, 10:11
Paul makes an interesting point that often occurs at the lower levels where one is lucky to get a TJ! However, this is one of those 'heat of the moment' judgement calls as to whether to overrule, or let the decision stand and have a quiet word with him later about it.

I would suggest that, in the context that you had worked with this TJ before, you were justified in your decision to over-rule him and explain it later

AndyKidd
27-11-07, 10:11
Dickie/PaulDG

Both of your points I understand, and my point was only that the laws allow you to overrule. And I accept that with different levels of the game comes a variance. And various senerios for the same offence will bring up various answers.

Greg was checking about his decisions.
My answer was he was right and I quoted from the law book to show that his decisions were sound in Law.

we have now moved onto whether he should have. This is really something only he can answer for himself. To be fair, none of us were at the game (that I know of) and can only tell him what we THINK we would do given Gregs description.

Greg Collins
27-11-07, 12:11
Ref; Greg Collins;Ball comes down still not having crossed plane of touch, full back still with one foot in touch one infield knocks/swats/bats the ball further infield towards waiting winger.


If he had badly fumbled that ball before securely holding it (feet still unmoved), whose throw would it be?

Dunno, cos that's not what he did

but if a hypothetical FB did exactly what you've described I say His side's. If he catches it, it is in touch because he is touch. Might not be logical but that isn't my problem.... them's the Laws.

If only you were a younger man chopper, we'd get you out in the middle:eek:

Greg Collins
27-11-07, 12:11
This is true however I have been on the receiving end of being over-ruled by the ref (for the record I was right and he was wrong). It isn't pleasant and exposes you to the cat-calls of the dickheads behind you for the rest of the game.

In my view, maintaining the credibility of the TJ is more important than getting the call accurate unless it is a "critical incident".

Dickie you make an EXCELLENT point IMHO but in my view maintaining whatever credibility a decent, honest, non-team of three, U15 year old TJ has is EQUALLY important as getting the calls accurate.

First break in play I went over to him and said "Sorry, I over ruled you, I may have got that call wrong I'll double check after the game, thanks for running touch for me"

Next close touch call was a much, much, closer thing and I wasn't there to judge it but I think he may got it wrong. I had to back him because I knew no better. Red started giving him a hard time. "Red leave it and play rugby." They carry on. Ping! "Penalty. Dissent, you argue with my Touch Judge you are arguing with me, get back 10m". He has to take the rough with the smooth I reckon.

In the bar, me, the TJ, his Dad (Blue #8), the experienced ex-ref and others etc., had a good natured debate arguing the rights and wrongs of the touch call and my over ruling of it. Consensus was TJ was right and I was wrong. I don't agree; Red FB had all the time in the world and knew exactly what he was doing, he set himself to catch the ball, looked up saw the overlap, and he batted it further in-field to his winger instead. His quick thinking caught his own players off guard hence they subsequently fouled it up.

My question is this; surely Red FB deserves to be rewarded for using the LotG to his advantage?

Greg Collins
27-11-07, 13:11
we have now moved onto whether he should have. This is really something only he can answer for himself. To be fair, none of us were at the game (that I know of) and can only tell him what we THINK we would do given Gregs description.

Players' rights first, ref's rights second, unappointed TJ's rights third, all others equal fourth.

Should I have over ruled him? - at the moment I did it I was certain, absolutely 100% certain, I was right. The Red FB is standing stock still under the dropping ball, I'm thinking "if he catches this he IS touch, if catches this he IS touch" as the ball comes down. He bats it infield as the flag is going up, I yell "Not touch, play on"

I wanted to reward the Red FB for using his knowledge and application of the LotG to get an advantage, in this case a massive overlap, for his side. It's a league game, it counts for something. Why would I disadvantage him and his side in favour of a TJ?

How would that help the temper of the game...?

SimonSmith
27-11-07, 13:11
I think he does, yes.
Imagine if his quick thinking had led to a try - would you be wanting to call that back just to not undermine the TJ? I wouldn't - and I bet an assessor wouldn't either.

I'd suggest that if we KNOW that the TJ is wrong (i.e. not marginal, or wrong in law) we have an obligation to do the right thing by the players

OB..
27-11-07, 13:11
I am firmly with Greg Collins and SimonSmith.

If the TJ is wrong, who benefits? In the short term, the wrong team. In the longer term, other wrong teams since he will continue to make that mistake and get away with it.

In one sense you are doing the TJ a favour by helping him understand his job better. Management comes into it by apologising for needing to over-rule, and gently explaining why. If he is too sensitive to take it, you need a better TJ.

ex-lucy
27-11-07, 13:11
i had a similar call on Sat. the TJ just put his flag up and let me make the call.

but .. moving on to another similar situation....
a replacement running touch for me ... (the only replacement) ... he makes his mark for touch way way away from where the ball crossed the line of touch. And again. And again.

do you go with his mark/s?
ask him to move mark back towards your idea of where the mark should be?
compromise and ask him to give it a couple of yards that way, pls?

it happens ... alot.

PeterH
27-11-07, 14:11
I have had that few times...
One man and his dog games etc...
No real TJ's obviously

I just laughed with him - along the lines of - hey you are only allowed 15 players but I can't blame you for trying - move it back a bit... only needed it once...
they usually just laugh and say - you have to try don't you :)

I see it up there with SH rolling the ball 2m forward from the mark when you check on injured players etc...
It's cheating - but cheeky cheating... in my book much better than handbags - but good management can leave a smile on their faces and prevent it escalating...
as we know (awaits flames) all SH's are cheats anyway :biggrin:

Dickie E
27-11-07, 21:11
I think he does, yes.
Imagine if his quick thinking had led to a try - would you be wanting to call that back just to not undermine the TJ? I wouldn't - and I bet an assessor wouldn't either.

I'd suggest that if we KNOW that the TJ is wrong (i.e. not marginal, or wrong in law) we have an obligation to do the right thing by the players

Simon, that's why I used the phrase "critical incidents".

For example, I have over-ruled TJs at shots at goal.

SimonSmith
28-11-07, 13:11
I think you're on a sticky wicket there, tbh.
Getting the throw in wrong, when so many line outs are clean wins, is problematic for me. Guaranteeing possession to the wrong team? Love to hear the justification for that!

tim White
28-11-07, 14:11
I once had the pleasure of over-ruling a former referee, he marked touch a good 15m away from the true point and I was perfectly in line with the kick. Before I had a chance to speak he spat the dummy-BIG TIME, and threw the flag down, and stomped off to his mates. I was dumbstruck a) he must have known he was being unduly generous with the mark and b) how he reacted to being corrected.:confused:

Having thought about that incident and the others raised here I find myself wondering how you explain yourself to a coach/player/assessor who knows the touch judge was wrong and, following a dissenting call from the aggrieved coach, you choose to go with the wrong decision. If its me or the TJ who gets shot down at this point- ITS THE TJ every time, my credibility is more important in every subsequent match than his. Note the signature at the bottom of this thread- Can't live with it any other way.

Rew15
28-11-07, 14:11
I once over ruled a touch judge at a level 9 game.
He gave 'his' team about 20 metres extra on a touch kick from a 22 clearence. He was still coming back from the first kick and was nowhere near the ball As the players lined up where he was I whistle and said touch here gentlemen please'.
He replied 'It went out here' I said ' The lineout is here please' I apologised for over ruling him saying I was up with play and in line with the kick.


The next time the ball went out his side he did the most theatrical stamp on the ground raised his flag and said 'the mark is here'. To which I smiled and said 'thank you'.

Dixie
28-11-07, 15:11
I think you're on a sticky wicket there, tbh.
Gosh! A Scot in the USA using a cricketing metaphor. What is the world coming to? At this rate, even a soccer metaphor isn't out of the question!

cymrubach
28-11-07, 15:11
I once took the flag of a helper to give to the coach of a junior side who was constantly shouting at his team and upsetting them, while presenting him with the flag I quietly whispered that he was now officially part of my team and no longer a coach and he had to behave as such..... not a bl%dy peep for the rest of the game, and he was actually very good with the flag. Wish I had given it to him earlier :wink:

SimonSmith
28-11-07, 15:11
Gosh! A Scot in the USA using a cricketing metaphor. What is the world coming to? At this rate, even a soccer metaphor isn't out of the question!

I once had to try to explain that metaphor over here....exercise in futility

sgoat
28-11-07, 19:11
I was once refereeing for the school that I was working for in Aus. With 5 mins to go the opposition were charging down the touchline. As the guy from my school went to tackle him he (the tackler) went into touch, but the man with the ball did not. The flag went straight up from the home TJ (a sub). I was running directly behind him (bad position I know, but I had been caught off guard) and overruled the TJ with a loud "Play On". From this phase of play they scored under the posts to win the match by 2 points. The home team and crowd were in uproar. Luckily for me the school chaplain was watching just next to where the incident took place and saw it as I did, and so backed me up.

It didn't really stop the banter from the kids and staff during the next week, but it was the right call. As was said above, you have to go with your gut. If you think it is right to overrule the TJ then you have to make the call and then worry about defending it/apologising afterwards.

However when I get complaints about the TJs choosing the wrong place for the lineout I will remind them that each team provides one touch judge, so they can stop complaining. If they go too far from the mark I might politely ask them to shift back a bit.