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OB..
16-12-07, 01:12
In today's game, there was a scrum (uncontested) right in front of me. The ball came out and was passed quickly across the pitch, the referee following. Behind him, a fight started - a fairly serious looking one - and a couple of other players came across to join in.

You are the adviser. What do you do?

SimonSmith
16-12-07, 04:12
Do you mean after the game, or during the game?

For my money - you're the adviser; you're there to advise the referee. You can't flag, and you can't tell him what happened.

Sucks, but there is very little you can do.

FlipFlop
16-12-07, 07:12
The only time ANYONE should intervene on the pitch is if someone is not voluntarily involved in a fight (pinned on the deck and clearly not responding for example). Basically if you are seriously worried about the safety of one of the people in the fight.

But if they are trading punches - it's not for the spectators (coaches, subs, assessors, etc) to get involved.

Simon Thomas
16-12-07, 12:12
You make clear notes - numbers of players involved, who did what to whom and when, take names and contact numbers of other witnesses.
Then discuss post match with referee as part of advisement de-brief and offer notes & witness details to either (or both) clubs considering a citing.

In a serious safety issue, or with U18 players, you might offer information to the referee at the time (at his request).

Report to your SADO / Discipline Officer for Committee attention.

tim White
16-12-07, 16:12
I'll go with Simon on this, you are simply a witness to the events. BUT you are an expert witness and know what information to record and who to give the information to:wow:

peperami
16-12-07, 17:12
I'll go with Simon on this, you are simply a witness to the events. BUT you are an expert witness and know what information to record and who to give the information to:wow:

Snap I'd have to agree with Simon.

Have had this happen when I have been the sole referee TJ at a game, referee asked me what I'd seen for information only.

Post match club secretary asked me if I had seen what had happened. Player was cited and I was called as a witness.

Player found guilty and rightly suspended. For repeated stamps to head.

Ben

outofpuff
16-12-07, 19:12
Guys,
I believe as an appointed Referee assessor you have the power to cite.
RFU disiplinary regs Appendix 7 1 (b) page 385 of RFU handbook.
So make notes, player numbers etc and details of events you see.
report to disiplinary sec and await results.

Dickie E
17-12-07, 01:12
Have had this happen when I have been the sole referee TJ at a game, referee asked me what I'd seen for information only.



Ben, what do you mean by "for information only"? Why didn't you hang your flag & report the offence in the time-honoured tradition? (I assume that when you say "sole referee TJ" you were the TJ and also a badged referee?)

SimonSmith
17-12-07, 01:12
I think - if I understand Ben right - what he means is that this weasn't a Team of Three, with two qualified TJs. The other TJ was SODWAF - Some Other Dude With A Flag.

As such, I believe you carry no weight or authority to actualoly "flag" for anything

beckett50
17-12-07, 08:12
What Simon & Tim said

Davet
17-12-07, 13:12
I was involved in a similar situation a few years ago, as TJ not an advisor. I was not an appointed TJ, but since I was at a loose end that day i went to my local club to watch the game, and was asked to be TJ. I did so, and the ref knew who I was (we had met several times) and that I was a referee, and of his society, and accredited at the same level as the game. He was happy for me to TJ.

Part way through the game, about 5m in from my touchline we had a ruck, I was watching closely, the ref was infiled watching his side. Red player deliberately stepped across and raked studes on the head of prone and defenseless blue player, causing a decent cut and plenty of "claret" to the players scalp.

Instant uproar, and plenty of players wanting take retributive action.

Ref, clearly aware that something untoward had gone on, but blinsided so no view of it himself, asks me waht has happened.

I explain and he Red Carded the offender, as he would have done had he seen it himself.

The match continued, and the RC had the desired effect. No more foul play, no-one looking for retribution.

Disciplinary committee threw the case out as I had no authority in the game, being un-appointed, and ref was told he should not have asked me my view.

Probably technically correct, but had that player stayed on the pitch then there would have been more blood spilt.

Moral of the tale.... you decide.

Simon Thomas
17-12-07, 13:12
I remember it well Davet.

As we all know the referee can (and should) only give what he sees. However in this case it was a sensible dismissal, if only for his own safety, and most agreed 'off-the-record' with the actions taken on the day.

The CB Disciplinary Committee had no choice but to dismiss the case as it was based on in-admissable evidence from the referee (he didn't see the offence, so how can he give evidence. By dismissing the player on the day, any possible citing (where your evidence would have been used) was negated - such is the way Law works in rugby, civil and crimminal courts.

tim White
17-12-07, 13:12
By dismissing the player on the day, any possible citing (where your evidence would have been used) was negated - such is the way Law works in rugby, civil and crimminal courts.


Now that is interesting, but of course you have a dilema now. Which is the right course of action, which is the best course of action?
:confused:

Bungle
17-12-07, 15:12
You could always hit the transgressor with a programme or your clip board, a la Alan Black :wink: :biggrin:

beckett50
17-12-07, 17:12
I remember it well Davet.

As we all know the referee can (and should) only give what he sees. However in this case it was a sensible dismissal, if only for his own safety, and most agreed 'off-the-record' with the actions taken on the day.

The CB Disciplinary Committee had no choice but to dismiss the case as it was based on in-admissable evidence from the referee (he didn't see the offence, so how can he give evidence. By dismissing the player on the day, any possible citing (where your evidence would have been used) was negated - such is the way Law works in rugby, civil and crimminal courts.

That's why when a player is shown a RC on the recommendation of, or upon the receipt of input from, the TJ it is the TJ that writes the report.

Perhaps if Dave had written the report the outcome may have been different

Dickie E
18-12-07, 03:12
such is the way Law works in rugby,

I'm happy to say this isn't how it works in my neck of the woods. If you've done the course & you've got a flag in your hand then you're da man!

Simon Thomas
18-12-07, 11:12
Beckett

This was a level 10/11 match so as he said above Davet was running as a club TJ (non appointed) and so has no Law 6 Foul Play authority either on the day or as a discipline report.
Of course if he had been part of an appointed Team of 3 (at this level for Cup Semis and Finals only) he would have both made a dismissal recommendation and done the paperwork.

Dickie E

You have a far better TJ system in Oz, NZ and SA with a mandatory exam etc, and a team who go through the day with U16, Colts, 3rds, 2nd and 1st all playing consecutively, so guys can run as TJ for others. In England it is only at the National Leagues where trained TJs (all level 8 or higher refs in their own right) or in County Cup semis and Finals, where its Society TJs, are appointed. Unless appointed bt RFU, Federation or Society, the TJ has no powers under RFU Match Regulations.

beckett50
18-12-07, 13:12
Simon, I realise that he wasn't appointed and therefore not in an official capacity. However, I was merely making the point about RCs & (appointed) TJ inputs and suggesting that it may have been better in this instance for Dave to also submit a 'temperaneous report' to the relevant people.

Simon Thomas
18-12-07, 17:12
Against our recommendation at the time, any such report was ruled inadmissable (by the Judge no less - of Naval Blue persuasion).

Davet
18-12-07, 18:12
My view at the time of the hearing, and on being told that the offender would get off, was that the fact of the players dismissal on the day was the most significant factor.

Shame he did not get disciplined by the committee, but the game's the thing.