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Tony Cornell
11-01-08, 14:01
I'm interested to hear what system everyone uses to set the lineout. Do you just give a centre line, then manage how the teams line up either side of the mark, or as I saw one ref while I was touch judging, give the centre line and defendings team line? Do you also vary your system according to the level of match?

Thanks
Tony

Toby Warren
11-01-08, 16:01
I normally give a mark for the team throwing in - the non receivers then need to create the gap. If I have a TJ (and most weeks there isn't 30 players let alone a TJ) I set this mark .5 m from the mark he has given me i.e his mark is then down the middle.

OB..
11-01-08, 16:01
The TJ is supposed to mark the point at which the ball went into touch. The two teams have to line up 0.5 metres to either side of that.

Most referees make a mark on the 5m line to show where the line of touch is, and then ensure that the two props at the front are far enough away from that. At the first lineout that means standing there directing traffic. Usually they get the message, and later on you only need to mark the point on the 5m line and can then move away.

cymrubach
11-01-08, 20:01
Spot on OB exactly how I do it, I will speak to the 2 front men at the 1st lineout and instruct them that that's how I want it all game and they are in charge of making sure all the players are lined up behind them, delegating responsibility to them. :wink:

Gareth-Lee Smith
11-01-08, 20:01
Spot on OB exactly how I do it, I will speak to the 2 front men at the 1st lineout and instruct them that that's how I want it all game and they are in charge of making sure all the players are lined up behind them, delegating responsibility to them. :wink:

Strangely enough, this is how I do it too :eek:

cymrubach
11-01-08, 20:01
Must have had a good mentor...:D

Dixie
11-01-08, 22:01
I find a decent gap makes my life much easier, so I do as Cymruback and GLS do. However, at some levels it seems teams have got used to a smaller gap, and my initial setting tends to be forgotten as the game goes on. In such cases, I may well make a mark for the defending team as well as a middle line. But it is as a reminder to the front row man - I may remind him that it's his responsibility as delegated, and a FK can be given.

didds
12-01-08, 00:01
Spot on OB exactly how I do it, I will speak to the 2 front men at the 1st lineout and instruct them that that's how I want it all game and they are in charge of making sure all the players are lined up behind them, delegating responsibility to them. :wink:

that of course presupposes that the bloke at the front of lineout number 1 is the same bloke who will be at the front of every lineout...

didds

Simon Griffiths
12-01-08, 01:01
I pretty much do what OB and the others do. But I'll usually wait around at every line-out until the first two get there and shift them if they've forgotten (or are a different person). Then I'll inevitably start yelling at one of the locks or the flanker at the back to get out of the gap, it's not their front room.

After a few seasons of continually being lambasted for allowing too small a gap at the lineout, I now have a rather large gap, if the lineouts are clean and tidy, I'll then let the teams close towards a 1m gap.

One thing I picked up of one of our national panel guys when TJing for him was if one team (usually the throwing in team) is complaining about too small a gap. Tell them to move until they are comfortable whilst telling the other line that it is not an opportunity to move. If they wish to I'll run straight to the 15m line whilst awarding a FK. Does the trick. Haven't had to award one yet (rarely have a problem with "they're too close" now I set a large gap).

Deeps
12-01-08, 02:01
I start this at the front row brief. Having sorted the scrum engagement out I then ask the front man to set the line out gap for me. I say I will indicate a centre mark that I determine as the line of touch from the TJ's mark and suggest that a side step will provide the necessary half metre. I ask him to ensure the entire line is straight before the ball is thrown or I will get on his case which I will do if necessary.

I will also encourage a larger gap if there is any wind, on the basis that if the ball falls into the gap, it must be straight and setting a larger gap will make life easier for everyone, 'won't it?'.

It usually works OK with only occasional reminders needed.

didds
12-01-08, 22:01
I start this at the front row brief. Having sorted the scrum engagement out I then ask the front man to set the line out gap for me.



very sensible approach.

But also presupposes that the front man in the lineout will be involved in the front row brief ... ie is s front rower.

;-)

didds

Davet
13-01-08, 02:01
I usually set the gap by marking the line of touch on the 5, standing on it and directing the front man on each side to where I want him, "you there, and you there!" Then back off and if necessary tell others in the line to leave a gap.

After the first two or three I may just mark the LoT and if they continue Ok the fine, if not we go back to me directing traffic.

beckett50
13-01-08, 10:01
very sensible approach.

But also presupposes that the front man in the lineout will be involved in the front row brief ... ie is s front rower.

;-)

didds

Haven't come across an occasion where it isn't - apart from 7s of course:wow:

Go with what Deeps said. Sometimes I may clarify by telling the defending side to 'use the 10m line' etc.

KML1
13-01-08, 14:01
3 options really - all can work, depending on what's happening or not happening:
1) give centre mark and set them off that
2) Set the defending line where you want them (use a pitch marking where approp)
3) Give 2 marks, one for each.

Ive actually shifted my approach in recent months from 1 to 2/3. Found I was having probs maintaing the gap so now, I try and get one side on a line - where possible - and then its easy to control. Also gives you a marker for the not straight.

If that still doesnt work, I give both front men a mark and get them to set on that. Worked well for me yesterday when the attacking side started to take advantage of my generosity.

Going for 2 is also a good one for the assessor, especi if you have to revert to it mid game. Reocgnised a problem and came up with a solution. Not that we ever do things for the assessor..... :wink:

Tony Cornell
13-01-08, 17:01
Thanks all for the advice, it worked a lot better at today's U14 league game. :)

Deeps
13-01-08, 23:01
But also presupposes that the front man in the lineout will be involved in the front row brief ... ie is s front rower didds

I have yet to discover a front man in the line out who is not a front rower; when that day comes, I shall summon him over to get the word.

Greg Collins
14-01-08, 12:01
I do what Deeps does but copying a more senior ref I've TJ'd for a couple of times tell both sides I want them to line up "a washing machine's width" from the mark to start with. This sets them wide to start and then gives them the wiggle room they need when they inevitably close the gap (legally) come throw time. I also stress the wider the gap the less likely I'll give not straight for slightly crook throws that are in the gap but not right down the zipper line.

Is any of this incorrect or inappropriate.....?

PaulDG
14-01-08, 12:01
I do what Deeps does but copying a more senior ref I've TJ'd for a couple of times tell both sides I want them to line up "a washing machine's width" from the mark to start with. This sets them wide to start and then gives them the wiggle room they need when they inevitably close the gap (legally) come throw time. I also stress the wider the gap the less likely I'll give not straight for slightly crook throws that are in the gap but not right down the zipper line.

Is any of this incorrect or inappropriate.....?

A washing machine is typically 600mm wide - you need to aim for closer to 2 washing machines..

SimonSmith
14-01-08, 13:01
I do what Deeps does but copying a more senior ref I've TJ'd for a couple of times tell both sides I want them to line up "a washing machine's width" from the mark to start with. This sets them wide to start and then gives them the wiggle room they need when they inevitably close the gap (legally) come throw time. I also stress the wider the gap the less likely I'll give not straight for slightly crook throws that are in the gap but not right down the zipper line.

Is any of this incorrect or inappropriate.....?

I like the idea, - I'm not sure I'd be quite THAT explicit about being less likely to give not straight.

Greg Collins
14-01-08, 14:01
A washing machine is typically 600mm wide - you need to aim for closer to 2 washing machines..

ah... but I have an attacking washing machine and a defending washing machine with the mark in the middle between the two thus 1.2m and Greg's a happy washerwoman.

and oddly most players seem to think a washing machine is about 1m wide!

Tony Cornell
14-01-08, 14:01
Interested to hear Greg, about you giving a slight allowance with regards to throwing in straight. I was critised by the home team coach for not blowing -up evertime the ball was not down the middle, even though it was still within the channel. I just felt allowances have to be given, based on skill level and weather conditions (this was a U14 league game on a windy day), otherwise I would be penalising every lineout!

Dixie
14-01-08, 19:01
I was critised by the home team coach ... I just felt allowances have to be given, based on skill level and weather conditions (this was a U14 league game on a windy day!) You were right. He's entitled to his incorrect opinion, however :hap:

Greg Collins
14-01-08, 21:01
Interested to hear Greg, about you giving a slight allowance with regards to throwing in straight. I was critised by the home team coach for not blowing -up evertime the ball was not down the middle, even though it was still within the channel. I just felt allowances have to be given, based on skill level and weather conditions (this was a U14 league game on a windy day), otherwise I would be penalising every lineout!

I had earlier sought solace here

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4441&highlight=straight
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4392&highlight=straight

and what Dixie said

dave miller
01-11-09, 18:11
I mark the middle on the 5 M line and tell the two front men to stay 2 feet from the mark and over the 5 M line. I am constantly being informed by these prop types that as 'on the line is over' then as long as they have their toes on the line then it's ok (they are usually facing away from touch)

jeff
01-11-09, 19:11
I make both marks for teams and tell the hooker i want it thrown down the middle. i have used this for a couple of seasons now and i find is working well.
but all to their own i guess, if it works for you go with it.

Stoo48
01-11-09, 20:11
At our meeting last week we had a certain Mr Barnes come to speak (very entertaining and informative) and this was a topic of discussion. Myself I mark the centre and move the front of line players to where I want them, typically about 1.5m apart (big gap much easier to manage). However, the discussion stated that the best mark to make was where you wanted the defending line to stand and let the attacker stand almost where they want to. I tried this in a level 8 league game on Sat and confused myself so much at the first line out I went back to where I was confortable.

Simon Thomas
01-11-09, 20:11
I mark the middle on the 5 M line and tell the two front men to stay 2 feet from the mark and over the 5 M line. I am constantly being informed by these prop types that as 'on the line is over' then as long as they have their toes on the line then it's ok (they are usually facing away from touch)


Dave

At higher levels 5,6,7,8,& 9 I would expect to see the referee insist on heels of both teams front supporters being inside 5 line.

What these prpp types are telling you is b*ll*cks and if reffing I would Ask, Tell, and then Penalise in short order.

OB..
01-11-09, 20:11
At our meeting last week we had a certain Mr Barnes come to speak (very entertaining and informative) and this was a topic of discussion. Myself I mark the centre and move the front of line players to where I want them, typically about 1.5m apart (big gap much easier to manage). However, the discussion stated that the best mark to make was where you wanted the defending line to stand and let the attacker stand almost where they want to. I tried this in a level 8 league game on Sat and confused myself so much at the first line out I went back to where I was confortable.

Did they explain why it is better to do it that way?

Most referees I see mark the middle line and expect the props to be to the side of that. He sets the distance at the first lineout or two and expects them to keep to it.

If he marked just one side, I think the TJ would probably move to line up with him and the whole lineout would follow!

I think consistency from one ref to another is all that really matters as far as the players are concerned.

Phil E
01-11-09, 21:11
Did they explain why it is better to do it that way?


I believe the theory is that you tell the defenders where to stand, and not to move. You then tell the attackers to "make a gap". Since the defenders dont move from their mark, if the gap closes, or isn't big enough, it is always the atackers fault.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
01-11-09, 21:11
At our meeting last week we had a certain Mr Barnes come to speak (very entertaining and informative)

From the stuff in brackets I guess the Mr Barnes in question was Wayne and not Stuart! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
01-11-09, 21:11
Yesterday I set a line with a big gap first off to which gobshite hooker (I RC'd him later :biggrin: ) said "How big's that?"
"It'll help you throw it in straight (thinks you tw@t)" sez I - Tadaaaaaaa! :biggrin:

NB Before game and as part of FR briefing I brief fat lads that I'll mark LoT you get "a big metre" and line them up on you.

Donal1988
01-11-09, 21:11
Got my first ever 5/5 rating in my assessment few weeks ago for my handling of the lineout :bday: (we'll say nothing about the 2/5 I got for tackle which I value much higher :Zip:)

OB..
01-11-09, 22:11
I believe the theory is that you tell the defenders where to stand, and not to move. You then tell the attackers to "make a gap". Since the defenders dont move from their mark, if the gap closes, or isn't big enough, it is always the atackers fault.
How many lineout players stay still until the ball is thrown in? All the line dancing that goes on these days, even at double digit levels, means that theory is surely pretty useless.

Phil E
02-11-09, 12:11
Yesterday I set a line with a big gap first off to which gobshite hooker (I RC'd him later :biggrin: ) said "How big's that?"
"It'll help you throw it in straight (thinks you tw@t)" sez I - Tadaaaaaaa! :biggrin:.

I still make two marks, for the inside foot of the front men. It works for me.

I have also had comments about the size of the gap! Have been known to remark back that it will keep on getting bigger until they learn to stay out of it!

Davet
02-11-09, 14:11
I'm all for ensuring the gap is a good metre; but not too keen on making it artificially large.

The non-throwing side must be close enough to the line of throw to compete if they want to.

By making the gap very wide (say 1.5m) you allow the thrower to throw in the gap,(and thus you find it hard to justify a "not straight" call) but say just inside the line of inside shoulders of his team, with the opposition still a metre away, and unable to compete properly.

This would seem to give the throwers an advantage

Greg Collins
02-11-09, 17:11
I find they compete just fine, if they are going to, at "two washing machines width" (though some props claim ownership of top loading slimline automatics) but it makes across the line naughtiness and closing the gap harder to do and easier to spot.

Greg Collins
02-11-09, 17:11
Dave

At higher levels 5,6,7,8,& 9 I would expect to see the referee insist on heels of both teams front supporters being inside 5 line.

What these prpp types are telling you is b*ll*cks and if reffing I would Ask, Tell, and then Penalise in short order.

So you are saying that, upstairs, no part of the front players' boots, of either team, should be on or over the 5m line when they are stood with backs to the touch line?

This opens up a whole world of opportunity for retaliatory pedantry at line out time.:clap::clap::clap:

ex-lucy
02-11-09, 18:11
shhh.. (ignore it Greg .. pedantic ... let the props stand where they like ... as long as they are lifting and not interfering with oppo jumpers .. let 'em get on with it ..)

ddjamo
02-11-09, 18:11
shhh.. (ignore it Greg .. pedantic ... let the props stand where they like ... as long as they are lifting and not interfering with oppo jumpers .. let 'em get on with it ..)

(says the prop) :biggrin:

Greg Collins
02-11-09, 19:11
shhh.. (ignore it Greg .. pedantic ... let the props stand where they like ... as long as they are lifting and not interfering with oppo jumpers .. let 'em get on with it ..)

I would mate don't worry, but it might come in useful when they get all pedantic about their oppo's.

OB..
13-04-10, 21:04
At our meeting last week we had a certain Mr Barnes come to speak (very entertaining and informative) and this was a topic of discussion. Myself I mark the centre and move the front of line players to where I want them, typically about 1.5m apart (big gap much easier to manage). However, the discussion stated that the best mark to make was where you wanted the defending line to stand and let the attacker stand almost where they want to. I tried this in a level 8 league game on Sat and confused myself so much at the first line out I went back to where I was confortable.
At the weekend an exchange referee had been coached to mark the front of the line for the defending side. This confused the locals. "Does that mean it's our throw, ref?" The TJ on my side was inexperienced, so tended to move to where the referee was standing.

In such circumstances it is not better for the referee to revert to what the teams expect? (He did not know until afterwards what I thought.)

Deeps
13-04-10, 21:04
I AR'd for KML1 earlier in the season and have since adopted his method of marking where the defenders stand. If you brief the front row beforehand after CTPE procedures then you should have no problem.

It has worked fine for me in Hampshire and I particularly like the fact that hookers have stopped whingeing about the gap. It allows the defenders to get their line straight while the attackers have their mini huddle. It really does achieve less referee hassle though you might have to concentrate a liitle harder when you make the mark.

OB..
13-04-10, 21:04
He did brief them, and reminded them during the game. However old habits die hard and they never really cottoned on. This was a double digit league game, and the technique was not working.

jeff
14-04-10, 12:04
For the last 3/4 seasons i have briefed the the front rows that i make 2 marks one for the defenders and one for the attacking team which will be each side from the line of touch where the ball went into touch. I have never had any trouble at all at the lineouts since then and both teams say it works well as no one then creeps into the gap, and i can clearley see my marks when i move away. assessments are always v,good for lineout gap,etc. so working for me.

Casey Bee
14-04-10, 12:04
For the last 3/4 seasons i have briefed the the front rows that i make 2 marks one for the defenders and one for the attacking team which will be each side from the line of touch where the ball went into touch. I have never had any trouble at all at the lineouts since then and both teams say it works well as no one then creeps into the gap, and i can clearley see my marks when i move away. assessments are always v,good for lineout gap,etc. so working for me.

Jeff

Were you wearing a blue shirt on Sat?
I enquired who the ref was and was told it was Jeff ****** from Berkshire.

Phil E
14-04-10, 12:04
Jeff

Were you wearing a blue shirt on Sat?
I enquired who the ref was and was told it was Jeff ****** from Berkshire.

How many 4 letter words have 6 letters? :confused:

Simon Thomas
14-04-10, 13:04
I have no issues whether the referee

marks the centre of line out and delegate to the props to set their gap (most I find are happy to comply and some get quite enthusiatic getting their colleagues 'in line'.)

or

marks the defending line

or

marks both

But usually it best to take one option and be consistent.

What I am looking for is effective management, which starts with the pre-match brief, and how the management is handled and communicated in the match.

Some of you may prefer to insist that the players adapt to your method, or you could adapt to theirs -but after adapting be consistent.

Just make sure whatever you do is effective and has the right outcomes - a full one metre line out gap !

andyscott
14-04-10, 14:04
I go for the defensive mark, unless it is 5m from goal, then the team defending that goal line will use the 5m as their line. I have the whole lineout (bar the receiver) at least 5m from goal

Also as a sidenote, I also bring the whole scrum in 5m not just the centre of the scrum.

Dixie
14-04-10, 15:04
Jeff

Were you wearing a blue shirt on Sat?
I enquired who the ref was and was told it was Jeff ****** from Berkshire.


How many 4 letter words have 6 letters? :confused: And this one begins with F!

Casey Bee
14-04-10, 16:04
And this one begins with F!

Sounds like the chap I was watching then!

Didn't want to put ref's full name as it could be confidentiality issue... (?)

jeff
14-04-10, 16:04
Kevin Boothroyd)
Yes i was wearing blue on saturday.

Casey Bee
14-04-10, 16:04
Kevin Boothroyd)
Yes i was wearing blue on saturday.

Well I hope you enjoyed your day and the hospitality was satisfactory.
Enjoyable game, first half more rugby, second half they were a bit stodgy.
Lovely sunny day, but the wind was a bit cool!

jeff
14-04-10, 16:04
Yes was a good day and the hospitailty was very good thanks.
Was back home by 20:30 so not a bad day and was in bed early as i left at 6:15 am for the game but worth it. nice pitch and stadium and the weather was a bonus.

Dixie
14-04-10, 16:04
Sounds like the chap I was watching then!

Didn't want to put ref's full name as it could be confidentiality issue... (?) Spot on, Kevin.


Yes was a good day and the hospitailty was very good thanks.
Was back home by 20:30 so not a bad day and was in bed early as i left at 6:15 am for the game but worth it. nice pitch and stadium and the weather was a bonus. Where was the game?

jeff
14-04-10, 17:04
HI Dixie,
I was at guernsey.

TheBFG
14-04-10, 17:04
I go for the defensive mark, unless it is 5m from goal, then the team defending that goal line will use the 5m as their line. I have the whole lineout (bar the receiver) at least 5m from goal


Is this correct? i know we're only talking a difference of half a meter:chin:

My preference is to mark the middle, this then also gives me a point of reference to drop my arm to let the backs know the LO is over

Phil E
14-04-10, 17:04
Is this correct? i know we're only talking a difference of half a meter:chin:

I dont think it is.

At a 5m lineout the 5m line is the line of touch, ie. the centre of the lineout.

At a 5m scrum the 5m line is the "put-in" line , ie. the centre of the scrum.

Simon Thomas
14-04-10, 18:04
Jeff - what happened to David Levy then ?

I wasn't aware that the appointment was changed - did Dai D know ? Or just done with Peter T / Ady LeP ?

Pleased you did it though - great bunch and I always enjoy my visits there, as I do trips to Jersey.

SIAM CUP in first week of May - lost weekend for me.

Kevin - ah ha all becomes clear now. Maybe see you Siam Cup weekend ?

Casey Bee
14-04-10, 18:04
Jeff - what happened to David Levy then ?

I wasn't aware that the appointment was changed - did Dai D know ? Or just done with Peter T / Ady LeP ?

Pleased you did it though - great bunch and I always enjoy my visits there, as I do trips to Jersey.

SIAM CUP in first week of May - lost weekend for me.

Kevin - ah ha all becomes clear now. Maybe see you Siam Cup weekend ?

Yes apologies Simon, I still haven't emailed you and explained where I am and what I'm up to. But I've been outed! Anyway, I certainly should see you at Siam w/e, I shall make sure I find you - I'll look for someone the same build as me (going by comments on here!) and we can have a real introduction!
I'm reffing U9 and U13 on the Sat before big event. Don't think odds for G are particularly high...

jeff
14-04-10, 18:04
HI Simon, yes david asked me to attend on his behalf niggling injury and peter t, contacted me aswell.
had an enjoyable day with good company of wes.