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KML1
13-01-08, 13:01
A Sunday afternoon teaser for you. WARNING - GREY AREAS ABOUT TO BE DISCUSSED! :wink:

Greens attacking down hill. On the centre spot, green 10 chips long thinking winger will chase. Winger slips so no real chaser.

Ball travels into in goal and comes to a complete stop, 30cm short of dead ball line. Super athletic referee (lets say!) is in perfect position to see were ball is and what happens next (hmmm!).

Defending full back approaches ball. Before touching ball, he places feet so he is straddling the dead ball line - one foot in in-goal, the other out of play. He then picks the ball up.

You decision please. How does play restart and why?

Mat 04
13-01-08, 13:01
22m dropout?

Simon Griffiths
13-01-08, 13:01
If I recall correctly from debates of old, once the ball has come to a complete stop, the person who touches it (regardless of whether they are straddling the line or not) is responsible for making it dead, or putting it into touch etc.

However, the attacking side still put it into the in-goal area, which is the all important factor in dead-ball scenarios. I would say 22m dropout without the option for a scrum back (due to the first paragraph, i.e. put it into in-goal, but can't be considered to have gone dead directly from the kick).

Emmet Murphy
13-01-08, 13:01
I'd say 22m with no option of a scrum because the ball is stationary it would be the same as the ball being played into in-goal by the attacking team and then a defender kicks it over the dead-ball line ... 22m for me

Pablo
13-01-08, 13:01
Doesn't matter who made it dead here - what matters is who put it into in-goal which is unquestionably Green. Therefore the correct decision is 22m drop-out.

madref
13-01-08, 14:01
Hi

22 drop out its all about who puts the ball in goal then was green. Once in goal it does not matter who puts it dead!

Madref

OB..
13-01-08, 14:01
I'm on the same page.

KML1
13-01-08, 15:01
No doubt it's a 'defending' restart but a big difference to a 22m d/o and a feed to a scrum on half way.

The issue is around the ball's status when played. Does him being dead make the ball therefore dead and therefore get the option?

Looking at other similar scenarios (ish)

- If a player is straddling the 22m line, when he calls a mark, it is classed as in the 22, even if the ball doesn't make it (or a leap from within to outside to call a mark.)

- If he is straddling touch, the ball doesn't cross the line of touch and he catches it, the ball is out, his lineout.

Both these 2 involve the ball in motion, but surely the ethos is the same?

I think this comes down to 'intent' and spirit of the law - and we all know how those areguements tend to go. i.e long and drawn out. :wink:

I would argue that the option element of the law is there to 'penalise' (bad choice of words) a kick that is too long. In this case, it is a perfect kick so Im not sure I would give the scrum option.

David J.
13-01-08, 16:01
Looking at other similar scenarios (ish)

- If a player is straddling the 22m line, when he calls a mark, it is classed as in the 22, even if the ball doesn't make it (or a leap from within to outside to call a mark.)

- If he is straddling touch, the ball doesn't cross the line of touch and he catches it, the ball is out, his lineout.

Both these 2 involve the ball in motion, but surely the ethos is the same?


Nope. The ball being in motion makes all the difference when dealing with touch and the dead ball line. That's been covered by rulings, though I don't have a link.

The 22m might be different, but I'm not sure. If the ball stops a foot in front of the 22 and a defending player with a foot inside the 22 picks it up and kicks to touch, not sure about that.

Jacko
13-01-08, 17:01
If the ball stopped outside the 22m then the defender would have taken the ball back in and thus would not be able to gain ground from a kick straight into touch.

Emmet Murphy
13-01-08, 17:01
If the ball's still moving when the defender picks it up then the kicker is deemed to have made it dead and then we have a scrum option back where the ball was kicked. As it is stationary, it's the defender who has made it dead which is why there is no option. The same principle applies to the 22m as well.

KML1
13-01-08, 20:01
With you all the way Emmet!

cmack
13-01-08, 21:01
http://www.rugbyref.com/lbyc/index.htm

Exactly, Just like the example #1 Goal line. Scenario 2 vs Scenario3

Davet
13-01-08, 21:01
If the ball has stopped then 22 drop-out no scrum option.

If ball had still been moving the scrum option.

Grey Area warning...?

The shape of the ball can affect the roll of the ball. If it is still moving, but happens to be moving parallel or away from the DB line... then does this make a difference; or is moving, moving - regardless of direction?

Emmet Murphy
13-01-08, 22:01
I have a feeling that when we discussed this before we decided that direction of movement is not a factor because the laws only distinguish between a ball that is moving and a ball that is stationary.

OB..
14-01-08, 02:01
Nope. The ball being in motion makes all the difference when dealing with touch and the dead ball line. That's been covered by rulings, though I don't have a link.

The 22m might be different, but I'm not sure. If the ball stops a foot in front of the 22 and a defending player with a foot inside the 22 picks it up and kicks to touch, not sure about that.
It's Ruling 14 of 2003, and it refers specifically to the 22. Other cases are by analogy.

beckett50
14-01-08, 16:01
This happened in a GP match last month. The defender allowed the ball to stop before making it dead/touching it down with feet stradling the dead ball line.

Referee awarded 22 d/o and when queried he clearly said "Ball had stopped therefore no option"