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AndyB
21-01-08, 11:01
Red vs Blue, Level 8, 60 seconds on the clock, Red (home team) lead by 3 points.

Red now have a penalty right in front of the post which they elect to kick. Kick is successful and completes with 20 seconds left (now 6 points lead). At this point the blue centres spring to the halfway line where the home ball boy has kindly left a ball for the restart and they drop kick it into the red 22 and chase.

There is nothing in the laws to say that they cannot do it, but should I differentiate between a penalty kick and conversion (as with a conversion the scoring team will have retreated behind the halfway whereas a penalty they would be following up).

However, the laws do state :

13.4 POSITION OF THE OPPOSING TEAM AT A KICK OFF
All the opposing team must stand on or behind the 10-metre line.
If they are in front of that line or if they charge before the ball is
kicked, it is kicked off again.

But here we can use materiality as all players no in the correct position where not affecting play. Or can we?

PaulDG
21-01-08, 12:01
...At this point the blue centres spring to the halfway line where the home ball boy has kindly left a ball for the restart and they drop kick it into the red 22 and chase.

There is nothing in the laws to say that they cannot do it....

Seems blue have gained an advantage from the change of ball. That's not allowed under Law 2.6.

AndyB
21-01-08, 12:01
Good point.

So let's assume that blue use the same ball, delaying the play by 2-3 seconds. Play on?

The different ball brings in a whole lot of more awkward questions (ie: home team losing, home ball boy only leaves a ball ready for them etc). There we have a clear advantage and we can disallow.

But what if we ignore the ball change?

Dixie
21-01-08, 12:01
Seems blue have gained an advantage from the change of ball. That's not allowed under Law 2.6.
Agree with PaulDG.

Davet
21-01-08, 13:01
Under 2.6 they gained an unfair advantage by using a new ball - plus the Ko was taken without Red players being at least 10m in front - which is certainly material - that lack enabled Blue to run on unopposed.

Blow, call it back, and KO again.

Simon Thomas
21-01-08, 14:01
Andy B - there is an RFU Guideline on this exact issue published about 5-6 seasons ago (when ball boys emerged outside of elite matches) and I have seen something on IRB headed paper about it too.

It is (like the quick throw) a big NO NO to use a different ball for a quickie. If nothing else do them for ungentlemany / unsportsmanlike behaviour and suspend it and order KO again ! I would placate them by calling time-off if there was a delay geting restarted. All down to how you want to manage it.


Now assume the same ball is used - well if red haven't got back, they are technically offside, but if not interfereing with play are immaterial. In the same way that a quick PK / FK is taken and defending players are making an effort to retreat and don't interfere with ball and/or carrier - play on.

David J.
21-01-08, 15:01
Now assume the same ball is used - well if red haven't got back, they are technically offside, but if not interfereing with play are immaterial. In the same way that a quick PK / FK is taken and defending players are making an effort to retreat and don't interfere with ball and/or carrier - play on.

Technically I don't think they're offsides. Technically the restart kick should just be taken again (13.4). But I don't think that's fair and believe play should be allowed to continue as Simon says.

Gareth-Lee Smith
21-01-08, 15:01
13.4 does appear to be applicable. However, now we are trying to judge between being fair, and working with the laws. Which do we do?

David J.
21-01-08, 15:01
What's the intent of 13.4? Is it to keep the receiving team back 10 to the benefit of the kicking team, or to allow a generally fair kick for both teams? Unfortunately, that's not in the law book.

Just re-read the scenario, which is a penalty kick. Red, the scoring team, had their players near the point of the kick and likely had a bunch of chasers. So if the Blue FB catches the ball 10m in the in-goal and charges up field, he's going to get to the halfway line before the chasing Red forwards can get to their 10m.

Is it fair to allow Blue a fast kick when Red hasn't had time to respond and comply with the law? But is it fair to allow Red to dilly dally (not waste time of course, that's a FK) even though Blue has allowed themselves to get behind with 20 seconds to go?

After thinking it over (something we don't have the benefit of on the pitch), here's what I would do: If Blue is quick enough to get their kick off before time up but Red hasn't had a chance to honestly comply with the law, I'd call the kick back and allow a re-kick, even if time has expired by then.

Blue gets one more kick off and Red gets a fair chance to defend.

AndyB
21-01-08, 16:01
David J.

Thats a good answer. However, what if I played the devil's advocate and likened the scenario of the blue team taking the restart quickly in the same way a team can take a penalty quickly. The defending team is allowed to retreat if they are in an offside position as long as they do not play the ball carrier until they are onside (by whatever means). In the same way, Red can retreat until the ball has gone 10 metres, then it is open play (ie: they must not prevent the kick off or the ball going 10m). Granted this is not a penalty and also assume all along that it is the same ball used.

Are we not denying a good attacking play by slowing things down?

What if a certain team did this the entire match and not necessarily after a penalty kick, but conversions? There might only be one Red player (the kicker) retreating that is offside then, so do we wait for him always?:chin:

cymrubach
21-01-08, 16:01
Technically I don't think they're offsides. Technically the restart kick should just be taken again (13.4). But I don't think that's fair and believe play should be allowed to continue as Simon says.

Why wouldn't you want to play advantage to blue and let them get on with it provided, of course the right ball was used, why penalise the enterprising team?

OB..
21-01-08, 16:01
Law 13 is an appalling mess. It carefully defines a distinction between kickoffs and restart kicks, but then forgets all about the latter except in 13.2.

We all assume 13.4 applies to restarts, but it actually only says kick offs. Do you blow your whistle for restart kicks?

Since Red players can legally be much further up the pitch than Blue, they have a built-in advantage. If they don't use it, that is their fault. Provided Blue use the same ball, I would have no problem with them taking the kick off as soon as they were ready.

Greg Collins
21-01-08, 17:01
Do you blow your whistle for restart kicks?
Nope got told is was the hallmark of the new referee os don't do it. I just say to the kicker "in your own time 10" and off we go.



Since Red players can legally be much further up the pitch than Blue, they have a built-in advantage. If they don't use it, that is their fault. Provided Blue use the same ball, I would have no problem with them taking the kick off as soon as they were ready

I have distinct memories of playing for one team in West Wales, Aberaeron II's maybe?, where the rush back upfield from a succesful penalty kick was standard practise. If the ball was caught or gathered there was a call, the 10 would get the ball asap from pass or kick and sprint for halfway sometimes feinting if nothing was on, and other times actually taking a restart kick. It wore the opposition forwards out a treat and every few games the oppo would be so bent out of shape that our centres would gather the restart chip and chase and link with the wingers to score virtually unoppossed.

It always looked wrong to me, and sometimes we'd get done (but in those days refs didn't explain why until you were in the bar) and sometimes we'd be forced to take it again, but I understood it was legal if not entirely sporting. I recall once teams started kicking penalties from well outside the 22 and we all got a bit older it fell out of regular use.

David J.
21-01-08, 17:01
OB: The only issue with Law 13 (aside from poorly written headers) seems to be this one, there's no mention of the whistle in Law 13. Should kick offs and restarts be treated the same in all respects under Law 13 except for 13.4?

cymrubach: I was under the impression advantage could not apply if there was no infringement. The way the law is worded, being front of the the 10m isn't an infringement, it's simply a condition of the game. I think OB pointed that one out a few weeks ago.

AndyB: There's no provisions for taking a restart quickly as there are for Penalties, Free Kicks, Line Outs, and Drop Outs. And what sanction would you apply to a Red player who tries to slow the Blue kick down by, say preventing a kick (a la a 22 drop)?

Yes, we're limiting the enterprising/attacking team, but we do that all the time by enforcing the laws of the game (chopper's touch issue for instance, or preventing a player from place kicking for touch or even not allowing a forward pass).

By the way, I think it makes a lot of sense to have quick restarts, and I think that's common wisdom, but I'm bringing up these points because if it happens during a game I'm referring, I want to be able to justify my decision if need be.

ex-lucy
21-01-08, 18:01
would we allow a quick 22m drop out if blue 15 catches the ball and runs up and takes a quick drop out even if red arent ready and back behind the 22m?
yes
so cant see the diff betw that and a restart at half way.
very rare ... i cant remember this ever happening in my experience.
Quick 22m: yes, but not quick restart from half way.

beckett50
21-01-08, 18:01
Whislt we can argue over the minutiae of the LotG over this one for ages, the parallel is in the quick throw-in.

A quick throw-in can only be taken with the ball that has been kicked into touch - yes I know all the stuff about not touching anyone else as well etc:)

The team have caught the ball and ran to half-way and, using the original ball that hasn't been touched by anyone outside the playing enclosure, take the quick re-start. PLAY ON:clap:

If they use the ball that has been placed there by the ball boys; and the winning side are ambling back, call "Time off" and wait. OK, so the leading team have the advantage of a semi-organised defence but at least they haven't run the clock down:wink:

David J.
01-02-08, 19:02
Red kick for points. Blue catch and rush to the mid way line. In his haste to restart, Blue 10 flubs the drop kick, which goes back towards the Blue line where a Red player, retreating catches it around the Blue 45m and runs to score. Play on?

SimonSmith
01-02-08, 21:02
I wouldn't.
13.4.

David J.
02-02-08, 15:02
It seems inconsistent to me to allow Blue the quick restart but then not have them suffer the consequences of it done badly.

SimonSmith
02-02-08, 15:02
Red never got their side of halfway, let alone the 10m line.

The fact that this is a "quick" restart is a red herring. It's a restart, and all the requirements are laid out in law.

Let me put it to you this - I agree Blue screwed up. Should they be doubly punished by a player who wasn't compliant?

David J.
02-02-08, 20:02
Should we allow play to continue if Blue kicks it quick to his advantage but not if it advantages the other team?

FlipFlop
02-02-08, 21:02
Should we allow play to continue if Blue kicks it quick to his advantage but not if it advantages the other team?

No. We can allow play to continue if Blue takes it quickly to his advantage legally. We can also allow play to continue if the quick kick is to the advantage of the oppo, provided that advantage hasn't accrued by the oppo being in breach of the laws.

Scenaro 1 - Blue kick quickly, and legally, and his winger from an onside position runs ahead, claims the ball, and scores. Try awarded

2 - Blue kick quickly, and legally, the ball doesn't travel 10m, and is blow back behind the halfway, but Red player runs onto the ball from behind his own 10m line, claims the ball, and runs in the try. Try awarded.

3 - Blue kick quickly, and legally, the ball doesn't travel 10m, and is blow back behind the halfway, but Red player runs onto the ball, but has never been behind his own 10m line, claims the ball, and runs in the try. Try NOT awarded. Red player is effectively offside. But what do you do? Rekick? Scrum for not 10m on the kick? I personally believe this is a MANAGEMENT decision, based on the game at the time.

Davet
03-02-08, 00:02
How is the red player offside? There are no special offside lines at a KO, so open play Law applies.

Personally I don't think I would allow a quick restart at a KO, too much scope for idiocy. Make sure Red are behind their own 10m line, the laws they must be, it doesn't offer a sanction, it's not an offence if they not, it's simply a condition of the game that they should be.

FlipFlop
03-02-08, 01:02
I was not actually saying the red player WAS offside, but was comparing it to being offside, as the closes "normal" situation in a game.

But I'd happly allow BLue to try and go quickly. And I'm sure that for at least 99% of the (atmost) 1% of the times they go quickly, it'll be fine, so I'll use management (based on the actual game) for that 1% of a 1% scenario where it goes wrong.

Davet
03-02-08, 12:02
so I'll use management (based on the actual game) for that 1% of a 1% scenario where it goes wrong

At which point it's too late.

No - we will have to disagree on this. The more I think about it the more I understand the Lawmakers concern to get a structured restart.

I'll stick with the Law, and ensure that the game doesn't restart until the opposition are behind their 10.

The Law specifies that if they are in front of that line the kick is taken again.

My plea to the Lawmakers is to amend the definition of Law 13 to "A kickoff occurs at the start of each half and any periods of extra time, and after any score".

The rest of the Law then pretty much drops into place. All that is required that 13.2 loses the words "and restart kick" in its heading.

ctrainor
03-02-08, 18:02
I'm pretty comfortable with the Blue Quick restart, been on both sides of the fence in my playing career. Red should have anticipated the goal being scored and left most of their players back ready for the quick restart.

One proviso now as a referee, I would want to mark the score down on my score card and be ready for the kick off myself before play can restart.

Being the sole judge of time it's an easy call to mange when the game is over but whatever you do don't actually say there is a minute left lads, Better to say not long or about a minute or two then you don't leave yourself wide open to criticism

OB..
04-02-08, 18:02
One proviso now as a referee, I would want to mark the score down on my score card and be ready for the kick off myself before play can restart.
But you don't control the restart, do you?

As far as I can see, the fact that the referee does not blow his whistle to restart after a score implies that the team kicking can do so as soon as they are ready, and do not have to wait for their opponents. Or the referee!

We agree the law is a mess. Let's hope the IRB sort it out. I understand the RFU has raised the problem.

David J.
04-02-08, 20:02
As far as I can see, the fact that the referee does not blow his whistle to restart after a score implies that the team kicking can do so as soon as they are ready, and do not have to wait for their opponents. Or the referee!

And if they kick without giving their oppo time to comply, and the oppo gains the advantage by the kicker's poor play? Play on or rekick?

OB..
04-02-08, 21:02
I don't see why the receivers should be entitled to delay the restart. They have the advantage in position anyway since all their players except the kicker (and perhaps a holder) can be in position before the kick, whereas the other team have to be behind the goal line.

In local games it is not unusual for several players from the team due to restart to stay around the half way line and save themselves effort. Under those circumstances (not envisaged in the laws!) I would rule that they had forfeited their right to a quick restart. Probably the last thing they wanted anyway.

Davet
04-02-08, 23:02
I still don't get why they would be entitled to restart when the conditions laid down in law are not fulfilled. Law says oppo behind their own 10, if not, then retake.

It's not an offence from which advantage may apply, it's simply a condition of the game - like having a ball. I know some forwards who believe that the ball is actually optional, but I won't start a game without one.

Plus, and in my mind actually more important, allowing the quick restart leads to potential difficulties in game management - so why make á rod for your own back? Just do what the good book says.

David J.
04-02-08, 23:02
OB
Do you think that when a team takes a quick restart, a player on the receiving team who has not retired to his 10m line is permitted to participate in play?

OB..
05-02-08, 01:02
Unfortunately the flaws in law 13 make it anything but certain quite what is supposed to happen. 13.4 strictly applies only to a kick-off.

OB..
05-02-08, 01:02
OB
Do you think that when a team takes a quick restart, a player on the receiving team who has not retired to his 10m line is permitted to participate in play?
To me it makes sense to say he cannot participate until he has got back to the 10 metre line, or play has overtaken him.

On the rare occasions when I have seen a quick kick-off, it has been used to gain a large amount of territory behind the opponents, so anybody who had not reached the 10 metre line could not take part in play anyway.

I think we are very much on the theoretical fringes here.

David J.
05-02-08, 03:02
Unfortunately the flaws in law 13 make it anything but certain quite what is supposed to happen. 13.4 strictly applies only to a kick-off.

I hope not...Otherwise the receiving players could be anywhere on the field!

OB..
05-02-08, 11:02
It is one of those cases where referees have to try to make sense of the laws. I believe my stance makes sense.

Davet
05-02-08, 17:02
Mine makes more:biggrin:

chopper15
06-02-08, 10:02
Unfortunately the flaws in law 13 make it anything but certain quite what is supposed to happen. 13.4 strictly applies only to a kick-off.

The Definition at the intro' of law13 clearly subsumes 'restarts'.

OB..
06-02-08, 10:02
The Definition at the intro' of law13 clearly subsumes 'restarts'.
Law 13 Definition: The kickoff occurs at the start of the match and the restart of the match after half time. Restart kicks occur after a score or a touch down.

This clearly distinguishes between kickoffs and restart kicks. Kickoffs only occur at the beginning of each half.

It does, of course, start the confusion by saying that a kickoff is used to restart the match after half time.

David J.
06-02-08, 15:02
1) I don't see how we can use the law book to justify a difference in between how restart kicks after a goal and kickoffs are treated. If we insist on the treating them separately because of the definition, then we have no way of restarting the game after a goal.

2) We agree that, except for 13.4, ALL the conditions outlined under the Kick Off provisions 13.1 to 13.9 apply to restart after goal kicks and kick offs equally. Why the exception of 13.4?

3) The referee manages the conditions of other restarts, "holding the throw" at a lineout until the defending team is given time to comply with numbers for instance. No whistle is used then.

4) It's been mentioned that a quick restart is a rare occurrence. I wonder why that is so? Quick throws, quick taps, quick 22s are common enough. Why wouldn't a top level team drill a quick restart after goal if their referee advisors have said it were allowed? Such a play could be very advantageous even if the clock weren't running down.

OB..
06-02-08, 16:02
(1) One of the differences between a kickoff and a restart kick is from Law 6.A.8 (a) "The referee must carry a whistle and blow the whistle to indicate the beginning and end of each half of the match."

By necessary inference, the referee does not blow his whistle for a restart kick.

As I keep asking, why should the opponents be entitled to hold up play, purely for their own benefit?

(2) It follows from my answer to (1).

(3) A referee only holds up the lineout if he is allowing one side to react to something by the other that they could not predict. (If the relevant ELV is accepted, that will disappear.) That is not the case with a kickoff.

(4) The kicking side had to be behind their goal line. Their opponents could already be in position. The kicking side is further delayed by the need to retrieve and use the same ball. In other words, it is rarely going to be the case that a team can catch their opponents unprepared.

Phil E
06-02-08, 16:02
A kick off is a kickoff and a restart is a restart.

Except................read the last but one line?

10 January 2006
The FFR has requested a ruling with regard Law 18 Mark and Law 13
Kick off and Restart Kicks In the definition of Law 18 Mark, it stipulates that a mark cannot be made from a kick off. This implies that it may be made from a restart. However a restart may be kicked from the half way line after a score. Is it possible to harmonise these two cases?
The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer
to the question raised:
From a kick off there can be no mark.
From a kick off after a score there can be no mark.
From a 22 metre drop out a mark can be taken.

OB..
06-02-08, 17:02
Nice one, Phil!

But we are still left with the fact that the referee does not control a restart with his whistle.

We are supposed to be encouraging play, not preventing it.

Phil E
06-02-08, 19:02
But we are still left with the fact that the referee does not control a restart with his whistle.

erm.......some do?
erm.............I used to.........and I used to tell them to wait for the whistle. No one ever challenged me about it.

<hangs head in shame> :o

Greg Collins
07-02-08, 13:02
erm.......some do?
erm.............I used to.........and I used to tell them to wait for the whistle. No one ever challenged me about it.

<hangs head in shame> :o

Don't worry, an assessor will soon put you straight. Less experienced players, whose mental model of a referee is someone in black in a soccer game, will look to you for a 'nod', i.e. permission, before kicking off and half expect you to blow for a restart.

I've got into the habit of saying "In your own time #10" or similar when they arrive at the halfway line with an enquiring look on their faces....

Davet
07-02-08, 14:02
As I keep asking, why should the opponents be entitled to hold up play, purely for their own benefit?



They are not. They can be penalised for wasting time, if that is what they are doing.

The Law is clear. The non-kicking side MUST be behind their 10m line, if they are not then the kick is taken again.

OB..
07-02-08, 18:02
The Law is clear.
You have not convinced me that the shambles that is Law 13 is clear.

Dixie
08-02-08, 06:02
You have not convinced me that the shambles that is Law 13 is clear.
OB, you know better than anyone that Law 13 is a mess. At least in part, this is because the legislators see no substantive difference between a restart kick and a kick-off, and so use the word kick-off to mean both - albeit having defined a subtle distinction early on. We refs have to make the mess work.

Law 13.4 is, as Davet says, very clear as regards kick-offs. If anyone on the defending side is ahead of the 10m line, take it again. I see no ambiguity or scope for argument. Issues of materiality may arise for a ref who wishes to avoid being picky, but refs often decline to apply otherwise-applicable laws on materiality grounds, even at kick-offs (ball goes left, right winger marginally offside). 13.4 is one of the most clear laws in the book.

Given that the legislators (and pretty much everyone who has watched plenty of rugby but not rummaged around in the law book) view kick-offs and restarts as being exactly the same, it seems reasonable that we as refs, trying to make sense of the mess that is Law 13, should apply the legislators' bias and treat restarts exactly the same as for kick-offs: including, I may say at the risk of seeming gauche, blowing the whistle to (re)start the game. [Note 6.A.5 - if we accept that the laws use "kick-off" as a catch-all to include restarts, this Law implies a whistle at a restart kick].

Where is the justification for doing otherwise?

OB..
08-02-08, 10:02
Law 6.A.5 "All players must respect the authority of the referee. They must not dispute the referee’s decisions. They must stop playing at once when the referee blows the whistle except at a kick off."

is trumped by

Law 6.A.8 (a) "The referee must carry a whistle and blow the whistle to indicate the beginning and end of each half of the match."

which makes it clear when the referee is to blow his whistle other than to stop the game. That does not cover re-start kicks.

Your argument rests entirely on the claim that kickoffs and restart kicks are the same. They are not. Should we treat them the same? In most circumstances probably yes, but this is one where I think it is unfair on the kicking team to make them wait.

In the absence of any authoritative ruling to the contrary. I shall stick to my view. (Note that I am NOT an authority.)

Davet
08-02-08, 13:02
I suspect we must agree to disagree.

However, I do believ that by simply not allowing the kick to be taken until the opposition are all behind their 10m line you avoid all sorts of potential flashpoints, and complications.

If time is tight and they are taking the michael then do them for timewasting.

Otherwise stick to the simple way.

Cymro
29-03-08, 22:03
I searched for "quick restart" and found this interesting thread. I was reffing at a tournament (http://www.teamtoursdirect.com/welsh-international-festival/index.php) today and will again tomorrow, the organisers had decided "no conversions" and so one team persisted in recovering the ball from the in-goal when a try was scored and rushing back to half way and taking a "quick restart". They did this 4 or 5 times, the opposition were mostly in the wrong half when the kicks were taken and I had no time to record the score, it was only after thinking through and reading the thread I realised it was because of the "no conversions" that this was such an issue. I wasn't sure of the law relating to "quick restart" hence my search tonight. I'm still not to clear on the law but I think tomorrow I'll manage it by saying "if no conversions then no restart until opposition behind own 10" comments ??

By the way the team taking the quick restarts lost by 8 tries to 1 :chin:

T

Dixie
30-03-08, 19:03
I searched for "quick restart" and found this interesting thread. I was reffing at a tournament (http://www.teamtoursdirect.com/welsh-international-festival/index.php) today and will again tomorrow, the organisers had decided "no conversions" and so one team persisted in recovering the ball from the in-goal when a try was scored and rushing back to half way and taking a "quick restart". They did this 4 or 5 times, the opposition were mostly in the wrong half when the kicks were taken and I had no time to record the score, it was only after thinking through and reading the thread I realised it was because of the "no conversions" that this was such an issue. I wasn't sure of the law relating to "quick restart" hence my search tonight. I'm still not to clear on the law but I think tomorrow I'll manage it by saying "if no conversions then no restart until opposition behind own 10" comments ??

By the way the team taking the quick restarts lost by 8 tries to 1 :chin:

TMy comment would be to quote Davet's eminently sensible words in the previous post:


I do believe that by simply not allowing the kick to be taken until the opposition are all behind their 10m line you avoid all sorts of potential flashpoints, and complications.

If time is tight and they are taking the michael then do them for timewasting.

Otherwise stick to the simple way. I think the answer is much clearer when there's no conversions.

Davet
31-03-08, 15:03
Apropos of quick restarts.

Red kick into touch, Blue throw awarded.
Blue 7 grabs ball throws it to Blue 15 who is in touch nearer his own goal-line.
Blue 15 takes quick throw (which of course is not available because he did not collect the ball himself).
Red 14 has made good ground and intercepts the quick throw, 6m in from touch, and runs on to ground the ball within Blue in-goal area.

Do you
a) Play advantage Red, and award the try?
b) Blow, bring play back, and award the Line-out to Blue at the place where the line-out should have been formed?
c) Something else

Phil E
31-03-08, 16:03
Apropos of quick restarts.

Red kick into touch, Blue throw awarded.
Blue 7 grabs ball throws it to Blue 15 who is in touch nearer his own goal-line.
Blue 15 takes quick throw (which of course is not available because he did not collect the ball himself).
Red 14 has made good ground and intercepts the quick throw, 6m in from touch, and runs on to ground the ball within Blue in-goal area.

Do you
a) Play advantage Red, and award the try?
b) Blow, bring play back, and award the Line-out to Blue at the place where the line-out should have been formed?
c) Something else

It has to be (b). Since the throw in was illegal, play has not restarted (the ball is still dead), so you cant give advantage.

OB..
31-03-08, 16:03
Law 19.2 (d)

For a quick throw in, the player must use the ball that went into
touch. If, after it went to touch and was made dead, another ball
is used, or if another person has touched the ball apart from the
player throwing it in, then the quick throw in is disallowed. The
same team throws in at the lineout.

This would seem to support Phil E. However:

Law 8 Definition

The Law of advantage takes precedence over most other Laws and its
purpose is to make play more continuous with fewer stoppages for
infringements. Players are encouraged to play to the whistle despite
infringements by their opponents. When the result of an infringement
by one team is that their opposing team may gain an advantage, the
referee does not whistle immediately for the infringement.

A quick throw-in offence is not one of the prohibited offences under 8.3

I see no generic reason why Blue should be protected against the consequences of their own error.

Phil E
31-03-08, 16:03
Surely you can only play advantage when the ball is in play. Since the ball is not in play (because the quick throw was not an option) then you can't play advantage.

OB..
31-03-08, 16:03
Phil E - where does it say that?

And does the error in the quick throw actually mean the ball (well in the field of play) was not in play merely because you could have whistled for the lineout (but hadn't)?

Dixie
31-03-08, 17:03
OB, if I remember correctly you argued the other way as regards not 10m at a kick-off. I recall being impressed by your rejection of advantage to the non-kicking side on the grounds that the game had not been properly re-started, so no advantage could apply, adn having just checked the thread, it seems your RDO confirmed "There is NO advantage for a not 10m from a restart, as soon as the kicking team play the ball, the receiving side should be offered options."

Adopting the same reasoning to Davet's scenario, surely we get further support for Phil's point of view. The ball is dead until it is legitimately resuscitated, and this is not achieved by an incorrect quick throw. As the ball is dead, no advantage may apply.

David J.
31-03-08, 17:03
There are conditions of the game in which we don't play advantage. The ball going into touch is one. We don't play advantage if Blue steps into touch, knocks on and Red gathers with a wide open field.

Why is touch exempt from the advantage law?

My point being there are events exempt from Advantage that are not specifically listed under 8.3. What makes those events different?

Perhaps because they are not considered "infringements", but simply conditions of the game.

Rawling
31-03-08, 20:03
I think the main reason that advantage is not (should not?) be played after a non-allowed quick lineout is that, unlike common infringements where advantage is played, after a non-allowed quick lineout the infringing team get to keep posession, rather than the non-infringing team gaining posession.

Can't think clearly enough to apply this train of thought to a quick restart though :)

OB..
31-03-08, 20:03
There are conditions of the game in which we don't play advantage. The ball going into touch is one. We don't play advantage if Blue steps into touch, knocks on and Red gathers with a wide open field.
We all know, because it happens frequently, that you can't knock-on in touch, only in the playing area.

The scenario were are arguing about is highly academic - I have never seen it happen. There is some benefit in examining the principles involved, but frankly we have a gap.

I have never been comfortable with the kick-off scenario. It was probably 9 or 10 years ago that this came up at a meeting. Most of us were surprised, but were assured it was the official view. Note that I checked to see if anything had changed. It hasn't, so I was giving the official party line because that sort of consistency is important. It is something that =happens qute often. I do not feel constrained by it in this case.

OB..
31-03-08, 20:03
There are conditions of the game in which we don't play advantage. The ball going into touch is one. We don't play advantage if Blue steps into touch, knocks on and Red gathers with a wide open field.
We all know, because it happens frequently, that you can't knock-on in touch, only in the playing area.

The scenario were are arguing about is highly academic - I have never seen it happen. There is some benefit in examining the principles involved, but frankly we have a gap.

I have never been comfortable with the kick-off scenario. It was probably 9 or 10 years ago that this came up at a meeting. Most of us were surprised, but were assured it was the official view. Note that I checked to see if anything had changed. It hasn't, so I was giving the official party line because that sort of consistency is important. It is something that happens quite often. I do not feel constrained by it in this case.

Rawling
31-03-08, 21:03
We all know, because it happens frequently, that you can't knock-on in touch, only in the playing area.


Can't you knock on whilst standing in touch, without putting the ball in touch?

OB..
01-04-08, 01:04
Can't you knock on whilst standing in touch, without putting the ball in touch?
I was responding to David J's scenario which, as I understood it, revolved around a player in touch with the ball.

If you are in touch, you can reach into the field of play to play the ball, and you can indeed knock on under those circumstances. And the referee could also play advantage.

OB..
01-04-08, 01:04
Dixie - it occurs to me that Law 13.6 could be made to work comfortably with a very simple change.

Currently it says:

If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line but is first
played by an opponent, play continues.

Change that to:

If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line the referee may play advantage to the opponents.


Now, if they catch the ball cleanly, or fly hack downfield, they may benefit as much as they would from a scrum, but if they knock on, that is the second offence, so you go back for the first. Same outcome but a much more satisfactory piece of law.

Dickie E
01-04-08, 02:04
Apropos of quick restarts.

Red kick into touch, Blue throw awarded.
Blue 7 grabs ball throws it to Blue 15 who is in touch nearer his own goal-line.
Blue 15 takes quick throw (which of course is not available because he did not collect the ball himself).
Red 14 has made good ground and intercepts the quick throw, 6m in from touch, and runs on to ground the ball within Blue in-goal area.

Do you
a) Play advantage Red, and award the try?
b) Blow, bring play back, and award the Line-out to Blue at the place where the line-out should have been formed?
c) Something else

I'd go with (b).

The thrower has used an object to recommence the game that he is not allowed to. Same thing if he'd picked up an old boot and thrown that in.

beckett50
01-04-08, 10:04
The common link with both scenarios - the re-start and the lineout - is that the ball has (technically) been made dead and so the advantage rule cannot apply. An infringements to which advantage can be applied can only take place within the field of play.

In the scenario given the ball was made dead when the Blue player passed it to his teammate to take the throw-in at the incorrect place. Since the throw could not take place the ball was never made live and so the try could never have been scored. Ergo, blow the whistle bring play back for a Blue lineout at the correct place. True, you may have some explaining to do to the rather irate winger who, no doubt, thought he was in under the posts - but sh*t happens:wow:

Phil E
01-04-08, 12:04
The common link with both scenarios - the re-start and the lineout - is that the ball has (technically) been made dead and so the advantage rule cannot apply. An infringements to which advantage can be applied can only take place within the field of play.

In the scenario given the ball was made dead when the Blue player passed it to his teammate to take the throw-in at the incorrect place. Since the throw could not take place the ball was never made live and so the try could never have been scored. Ergo, blow the whistle bring play back for a Blue lineout at the correct place. True, you may have some explaining to do to the rather irate winger who, no doubt, thought he was in under the posts - but sh*t happens:wow:

Isnt that what I said?.................mind you I never said Ergo :wow:

OB..
01-04-08, 12:04
In the scenario given the ball was made dead when the Blue player passed it to his teammate to take the throw-in at the incorrect place.
Technically, no. The ball is dead when it is in touch.

According to the description, the throw-in was at the correct place, but by the wrong person.

Davet
01-04-08, 21:04
I posted the touch query because to my mind it is directly analogous with allowing a quick kick-off when the required conditions are not in place - i.e. the opposition are not behind their own 10m line.

In the kick off situation then the law says the kick off is retaken, in the throw-in situation the law says the throw is taken again (from the correct place).

Which is why I would simply disallow both.

David J.
01-04-08, 21:04
To quote the Princess Bride...
"There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive."

There's a problem with the definition of dead. Namely, there's a difference between when the referee blows his whistle for a knock on and no player can restart play and when the ball goes into touch, in which a player can restart play, under certain conditions.

Both are considered "dead" but there is a large difference between the two.

Davet
01-04-08, 22:04
I don't understand, David J.

Its not a matter of dead, or injured. Its simply a matter of :are the conditions laid down in law for something to happen fulfilled? If so play-on, if not, not.

David J.
01-04-08, 23:04
I should have made who I responding to clearer.

beckett brought up a point about the ball being dead. I offered my thoughts on the utility of the term "dead".

Whether the life force of the ball is relevant to the issue of a quick restart is debatable. I don't really have an opinion on that (yet).

I have argued the same point you are in favor of, in this thread, a couple months ago.

Phil E
21-04-08, 19:04
But we are still left with the fact that the referee does not control a restart with his whistle.

Saturday Afternoon, Worcester v Bath. Don't know who the referee was (nice pink shirts) but twice I saw/heard him restart after a score with a whistle. :confused:

Simon Thomas
22-04-08, 10:04
Saturday Afternoon, Worcester v Bath. Don't know who the referee was (nice pink shirts) but twice I saw/heard him restart after a score with a whistle. :confused:

Pink shirts were worn by all Premiership match officials to promote male cancer charity.

A whistle at restart would be used if there has been 'time-off' - had player(s) been receiving treatment after the try score, or perhaps refs communication equipment being adjusted, etc ?