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ex-lucy
08-02-08, 14:02
i was TJ but got a good view of proceedings ...

School A (blue) 12, School B (red) 10. School A won with a goal in last minute of injury time.

1st scrum
Red 1 drove up and across blue 3 so disrupting scrum: reset
again, same thing: reset and chat to FRs
same: reset
scrum ok: ball out

2nd scrum
same thing happened but this time blue 3 went right up off his feet: reset and chat
scrum ok: ball out

line out on my side ... chat to ref
"red 1 is IMHO driving up and across, needs warning and probably penalising"

3rd scrum:
penalty

4th scrum
same thing: reset
same thing: "props to me pls. Drive straight, keep feet back, and wide so stable..." etc etc
scrum ok: ball out.

5th scrum:
same thing: reset
scrum ok: ball out

several more scrums went like this until half time when i had a chat with ref.

second half: blue changed thp and scrums went ok until last few scrums on red 5m line when red 1 went back to type and drove up and across and forced blue thp up off his feet.

what would you have done to better manage this situation?
as ref?
as TJ?

SimonSmith
08-02-08, 14:02
Penalty when you see the penalty.

I'm troubled by the penalty, and then the next time it happens just resetting - am I reading that right?.

Schoolkids - safety first

Phil E
08-02-08, 14:02
Was it obvious what Red 1 was up to?

Was his back not parallel to the ground?

wolfie
08-02-08, 14:02
I have recently passed ELRA and awaiting my first game. But, kids safety should be absolutley paramount, I am certain I would have been seriously thinking about sending the offending player off. From the sound of it he is not listening, is quite happy to cheat and will end up injurying another kid. Not good at any time in my view.

OB..
08-02-08, 16:02
Far too many resets caused by potentially dangerous play.

Remember the Smoldon case, where the referee was held responsible for allowing the scrum to collapse: "the number of impact collapses had been abnormally high" because he failed to enforce the CTPE engagement sequence.

If you are refereeing, you MUST stop it early. If the players will not behave, then you have various management tools. But do NOT allow such behaviour to continue.

As TJ, if officially appointed, you can only keep flagging foul play and hope to persuade the referee.

As an unofficial TJ you have no powers. You might still be able to talk to the referee.

If I were advising, it is one of the few cases where I would want to intervene.

If there is a coach there, somebody could talk to him and ask him to act, though he might of course be the one basically at fault.

ex-lucy
08-02-08, 17:02
i was an official (law 6 etc) TJ.
but i was unsure about how far i could go as to foul play here e.g. could i have put my flag in at first time i saw it happening? or wait until next line out like i did or what?
is it foul play?
or just bad propping/ cheating by red 1?
and the ref was a senior ref had seen it ...
i was flummoxed ... didnt know what to do exactly.
i know what i would have done as a ref ..
at first scrum: long chat to red 1 about safety issues:
"you may be better than him and stronger, bu while i am refereeing this match i am more concerned with safety and i want you to pack straight and drive staright and safely. ok?"
if he did not comply: penalty.
second time: penalty and chat with skipper (he was the skipper actually)
third time: coach/teacher would be involved and along the lines of ... "I dont have many option left to me now, do you understand what i mean?"
4th time: YC.
if one of those subsequent scrums had involved lifting opponent up, straight YC.

p.s. ref ignored me on other occasions too ... e.g. not straight at line outs, winger ahead of kicker, knock ons, lifting in line outs before ball in etc.

Jacko
08-02-08, 17:02
What imput had he asked for in his brief?
Nothing more annoying than TJs making you look stupid by shouting not straight for all to hear when you've seen it but are letting it go in order to get the game flowing or you deemed it immaterial.

Greg Collins
08-02-08, 17:02
excellent "coaching" along those lines given me in the car by very experienced ref/TJ on the way to two finals as TJ on Sunday. Two games, two different referees, two different levels of input required.

Also have to ask ourselves "How often has the fella in the middle reffed as part of a team of three?" I suspect often the refs are as unused to having an official TJ as we are to being one. Sometimes, at the lower levels, IMO, the t-o-t is there for show (and backup) more than any other reason.

PaulDG
08-02-08, 18:02
What imput had he asked for in his brief?
Nothing more annoying than TJs making you look stupid by shouting not straight for all to hear when you've seen it but are letting it go in order to get the game flowing or you deemed it immaterial.

A big part of the TJ course is about recognising you're not the ref.

Your job is to support him, not to make him look like an idiot.

Dixie
08-02-08, 19:02
A big part of the TJ course is about recognising you're not the ref.

Your job is to support him, not to make him look like an idiot.

Absolutely, Paul. The TJ is there to support the ref, not do his job for him. However, Ex's question, if I understand him correctly, is how the supportive TJ should best act in this situation?

A very good question Ex-Lucy asks is: does this count as foul play. Is it flaggable? Answer must surely be Yes - it is a 10.4(i) offence. While I would hope to be able to ref a scrum competently, Ex-Lucy's specialist skills here would be invaluable to me if I were the ref, since as a mere Girl in my playing days the dark arts remain - well - dark. If he stuck his flag out and told me what was going on, I'd penalise and take his advice about warnings etc. But (and I have to admit its possible) what's obvious to him may not be obvious to me, adn I may miss signs that seem glaring to him. Reading between the lines, I suspect this is the heart of Lucy's post. How do you, as a TJ in a team of three, act if you think the ref is not up to the challenges he is facing in the game?

OB says this is one of the few cases where he might intervene. It would be instructive, OB, if you could tell us what form that intervention might take - and when it would be appropriate to make it. Sorry to bounce the monkey back onto your shoulders, but I suspect they are broad enough to bear the weight:clap:

Dixie
08-02-08, 19:02
p.s. ref ignored me on other occasions too ... e.g. not straight at line outs, winger ahead of kicker, knock ons, lifting in line outs before ball in etc. Completely different issue IMO - game management, avoidance of marginal calls, inexperience as part of T-o-T may all have played a part in that. I suspect that's part of the daily experience of most top (and all junior) TJ's.

Mike Whittaker
08-02-08, 19:02
I await OB comment with interest.

For my part if I was there I even as a spectator I would actually consider stopping the game.

As an assessor in my own county I would just walk on and stop it.
Out of county I think I would rapidly get hold of the nearest coach and tell him that it must be stopped or that I would do so.

I would argue the justification afterwards.

As an RFU approved assessor I think I would be negligent in my duty if I stood by and watched without acting. If somebody got injured I would never be able to live with myself.

I have walked on and stopped a match at U12 continuum level when I saw that the hooker was binding with his arm around the neck of his TH. Fortunately it was at my own club and apart from a few mutterings from the side it was well received.

Just hope the case outlined is not one I have to face !! :swet:

ctrainor
08-02-08, 20:02
If I was reffing the scenario as described and I was sure Redwas offending I would have strong words with him and Teacher/Coach after 2nd or no later third incident and probably card the guy for repeat offences.

If I wasn't sure what was causing it I'd simply tell front rows and teachers any more and we are going to unopposed.

player safety No 1 priority.

I was at an U12 game sunday when a similar scenario occurred Red pack stronger/ more enthusiastic than green and were pushing more than the 1.5 meters on a few occasions. (exited and carried away)
Whilst this wasn't in anyway trying to hurt the opposition it just wasn't right and none contested scrums ensued with the agreement of coaches very quickly.

again Player safety is paramount

OB..
08-02-08, 21:02
I was being very cautious in what I said earlier: "it is one of the few cases where I would want to intervene."

The subject came up at a meeting a couple of seasons ago. Some people argued that you have no standing as an official, so no authority to intervene. We agreed that the adviser would not be held liable if anything untoward occurred, but most of us felt that would not be very comforting if we could have done something.

Part of the difficulty is that the referee will have to continue refereeing the match, and you do not want to undermine him, or it might make things worse.

If there was an official TJ, I would start by talking to him, since he would be in a position to do something without causing comment. If the referee persisted in ignoring the TJ, I would contrive to be on the spot the next time the TJ drew the referee's attention, and put in my twopennyworth.

Worst case scenario, the referee refuses to do anything, and I (and TJ) are certain it is a real safety issue, I would get the TJ to replace the referee "on medical grounds".

With no TJ (as is usually the case), I would have to find a way to intervene. At junior levels there will be some adult in charge. In the local park, there may not even be a man and a dog, so I would speak to the referee as quietly as I could at the next line-out. Ultimately I would march on and stop the game, if I could.

Fortunately I have never even come close to any such scenario. If I did I might find it hard to be very rational and measured in my approach!

Dickie E
08-02-08, 22:02
I await OB comment with interest.

For my part if I was there I even as a spectator I would actually consider stopping the game.

As an assessor in my own county I would just walk on and stop it.
Out of county I think I would rapidly get hold of the nearest coach and tell him that it must be stopped or that I would do so.

I would argue the justification afterwards.

As an RFU approved assessor I think I would be negligent in my duty if I stood by and watched without acting. If somebody got injured I would never be able to live with myself.

I have walked on and stopped a match at U12 continuum level when I saw that the hooker was binding with his arm around the neck of his TH. Fortunately it was at my own club and apart from a few mutterings from the side it was well received.

Just hope the case outlined is not one I have to face !! :swet:

This may be an issue I face this winter.

My 8 yo son will play U10 rugby which is 15 a-side and full contact. In the U8s last year it was 7-a-side and touch contact only so no problem.

The other factors are that there is often a big skill difference between the kids and a big size difference too at this age (have you ever seen a 12 yo Tongan with a 10 yo birth certificate?).

And, to round it off, the ref is invariably a well-meaning but unqualified Dad who will lumber around the field and try to apply laws that he only vaguely knew when he was playing 20 years ago.

Maybe soccer is looking good :rolleyes:

ex-lucy
09-02-08, 10:02
Part of the difficulty is that the referee will have to continue refereeing the match, and you do not want to undermine him, or it might make things worse.
this was at the back of my mind too.
He is a 55+ yr old Ref Soc Committee member who is quite bolshy and on the way down and a bit defensive. He is quite 'superior' in that way that some older refs can be.
The way he called a line out not straight when i said nothing thus it was ok:
"Oh Steve, that wasnt straight ..."
So, at the back of my mind was that if i flagged it in or walked on etc and not knowing the protocol for such scenario... it would cause a scene, he would be undermined and i would look very stupid in front of a senior assessor.
i am indebted for the info in this thred so i now know what to do. i feel confident that faced with this scenario again, i would act more assertively.

Dickie E
09-02-08, 10:02
so which is priority No 1 - safety or not making the ref look foolish? :confused:

chopper15
09-02-08, 10:02
Have just finished listening to Paddy O'Briens chat on ELVs, and he mentioned 'upgrading' (my word) TJs to Assistant Referees.

I would assume this move is intended to 'supplement' the ref's control of the game on the hoof?

If so, after following this thread with interest, would it not inevitably generate some conflict/friction?

madref
09-02-08, 10:02
Hi

I had a ver similar situation at an U12 festival. I was NO1 TJ for the final and an old referee about 60 did the final, he was a B1* when he stopped refereeing around 55.

He was dangerous and was refereeing the match like it was a level 5, kids going to ground, dangerous rucking, dangerous mauls and scrums where moving over 1.5, wheeling etc.

At 1/2 time I told him to come off I will take over say you have a problem with your leg, he refused saying he is pulling rank. I told the coaches I think he is dangerous they had a word with him and said he would adapt his style. I refused to run touch and walked away.

When 2nd half started there was a scrum collapse, then two minute later a really high tackle which he missed, this was about the 10th high one he had let go!

They child on the receiving end of the high tackle went down like a lead baloon and could not feel anything from his neck downwards, all hell then broke loose. The parent of the child who was injured swung for the ref, his mother hit the ref, people squaring up to him. In the end two policemen who where off duty had to escort him to the changing room. What a nightmare.

Air ambulance called and rushed to the childrens hospital, after a couple of days feeling came back to the child and he had nothing more than a swollen spinal cord around the neck area.

Referee tried to press charges against the parents who hit him and swung for him, I was called as a witness. It put me in a really bad position. I didn't agree with what the parents did but understand why the did it. If it had been my 11 year old playing I would have not been happy. But then again he would not have been on the pitch.

So morale of this story and if I had my time again I would have made sure he would not have refereed the 2nd half. I would have sat in the middle of the pitch and shouted out he was dangerous if needs be. If that poor lad had been paralysed I would have never forgiven myself for something I could of prevented. If I had been disciplined by the society later I would have took my chance there, at any level SAFETY is the most important aspect about being a referee.

At the time I was a C1 referee.

David

ex-lucy
09-02-08, 10:02
at the time though ... I hoped that the ref would manage the situation and would come through well and I didnt want to go OTT and create a scene for something that i thought he was capable of dealing with, being an ex-B1.
i stand corrected.

OB..
09-02-08, 11:02
I think it is a bit like a red card, Fred Howard style ("If you find your finger pointing to the dressing room ...").

If you KNOW it is a dangerous situation, then act.

If you are hesitant about the need to act, then you might be wrong, might make a complex situation worse, etc.

There is nothing simple about the problem. You just have to trust your judgement.

OB..
09-02-08, 11:02
Have just finished listening to Paddy O'Briens chat on ELVs, and he mentioned 'upgrading' (my word) TJs to Assistant Referees.

I would assume this move is intended to 'supplement' the ref's control of the game on the hoof?

If so, after following this thread with interest, would it not inevitably generate some conflict/friction?
This is not a change - it is simply formalising and clarifying the current situation. An officially appointed TJ would be called an Assistant Referee under the ELV, and thus have the associated powers. A Touch Judge ("Anybody from Blue to run touch? Please?") would have much more limited powers.

Phil E
09-02-08, 13:02
My 8 yo son will play U10 rugby which is 15 a-side and full contact. In the U8s last year it was 7-a-side and touch contact only so no problem.

Sorry to change tack slightly, but do they have different age grades and continuum's in Australia?

In the UK your 8 year old tag rugby player would move up to U9's with 9 a side, uncontested sscrums and lineouts, no kicking, no scrag tackles etc.

All players will have been tutored through tackling by coaches who MUST have completed a tackling course. While you can coach some things as you like, tackling MUST by tutored the RFU way. This is a gradual build up from tackling on your knees, to crouching, to standing, then to walking, jogging and finally running.

The following year at U10 everything moves slightly up a notch, but they still dont have 15 a side.

Mike Whittaker
10-02-08, 09:02
Hi

I had a ver similar situation at an U12 festival. I was NO1 TJ for the final and an old referee about 60 did the final, he was a B1* when he stopped refereeing around 55.

He was dangerous ......

So morale of this story and if I had my time again I would have made sure he would not have refereed the 2nd half. I would have sat in the middle of the pitch and shouted out he was dangerous if needs be. If that poor lad had been paralysed I would have never forgiven myself for something I could of prevented. If I had been disciplined by the society later I would have took my chance there, at any level SAFETY is the most important aspect about being a referee.

At the time I was a C1 referee.

David

David, thank you for sharing that with us...

As someone in the category of the old chap reffing the match I have made it clear to club members who see me do the occasional game that they are to remove me from the game if I get dangerous! Of course it would hurt my feelings and I would be very upset, but that just doesn't really matter :)

PS, your society would not have disciplined you.

Dickie E
11-02-08, 01:02
Sorry to change tack slightly, but do they have different age grades and continuum's in Australia?

In the UK your 8 year old tag rugby player would move up to U9's with 9 a side, uncontested sscrums and lineouts, no kicking, no scrag tackles etc.

All players will have been tutored through tackling by coaches who MUST have completed a tackling course. While you can coach some things as you like, tackling MUST by tutored the RFU way. This is a gradual build up from tackling on your knees, to crouching, to standing, then to walking, jogging and finally running.

The following year at U10 everything moves slightly up a notch, but they still dont have 15 a side.

Phil, ours is run diffently to yours and (I think) each state in Oz does it dfferently to each other.

PaulDG
11-02-08, 07:02
Sorry to change tack slightly, but do they have different age grades and continuum's in Australia?

Phil,

Every Union has different was of playing youth & mini rugby.

The Welsh have the "Pathway" which has several critical differences to our Continuum and this can be quite an issue in cross-border mini festivals.

(The usual things you'd expect - refs of both countries skim reading each other's rules 30 seconds before the match and only really taking in the fact that the Welsh don't have fully competitive scrums until U14. (Or is it U15?). Lots of minor issues get missed and result in a lot of disgruntled parents on the touchline and a lot of kids who feel the ref was cheating...)

Phil E
11-02-08, 11:02
Phil,

EveryThe Welsh have the "Pathway" which has several critical differences to our Continuum and this can be quite an issue in cross-border mini festivals.

Interesting, I didnt know that.

As far as the Welsh go, perhaps we should stick to cross border raids for holiday homes and sheep!

<runs, ducking and weaving>

Pre-game pep talk before facing England: "Look what these *******s have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and they only live in them for a fortnight every 12 months. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English - and that's who you are playing this afternoon."
Phil Bennett (1977)

Greg Collins
11-02-08, 13:02
Pre-game pep talk before facing England: "Look what these *******s have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and they only live in them for a fortnight every 12 months. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English - and that's who you are playing this afternoon."
Phil Bennett (1977)

Celtic mythology is so fascinating...

chopper15
11-02-08, 13:02
Celtic mythology is so fascinating...

Come down here to our beloved Cornwall, Greg, and you'll soon discover it's no Celtic myth!!!

Phil E
11-02-08, 14:02
Come down here to our beloved Cornwall, Greg, and you'll soon discover it's no Celtic myth!!!

Cornwall, Cornwall....hmmmmm.....thats a small county in England isnt it?

chopper15
11-02-08, 14:02
Cornwall, Cornwall....hmmmmm.....thats a small county in England isnt it?

So you mongrel English keep telling us, Phil!

And I suppose you've no objection to the arrogant twicker's imposition of using the British national anthem to deprive the English supporters of their 'proud' identity, Phil?

What about the rest of you twicker's lackeys out there? Don't you have a desire to instil some patriotic passion with your own, yes, your own national anthem?

Wouldn't it be indeed wonderful if the complacent RFU organised a ballot and 'By Ilkley Moor' instead of that black spiritual, won . . . ?

Phil E
11-02-08, 14:02
And I suppose you've no objection to the arrogant twicker's imposition of using the British national anthem to deprive the English supporters of their 'proud' identity, Phil?

Great Britain is England; England is Great Britain.

Add the other bits with the druids in and you get The United Kingdom!


<Stand back proudly and waits for the inevitable backlash.>

Dixie
11-02-08, 15:02
Wouldn't it be indeed wonderful if the complacent RFU organised a ballot and 'By Ilkley Moor' instead of that black spiritual, won . . . ?
Chopper, it needs to be far wider than just the RFU, because the song should work for ALL England representative teams in every sport. This is a classic case where we need a 17-week reality TV show. The advantage of swing low is there are only 10 words to remember - at least, as sung at Twickers. If Blaydon Races or Ilkely Moor were to win, the only people who know those songs are the ones living too far away to travel regularly to Lords, the Oval, Wembley, Twickers, the Olympic village etc.

Of course, it is stupid to have built everything in London, but what's done is done. So we need a good Home Counties song that can unite the UK (as so interestingly defined by Phil E) in patriotic fervour. I suggest either Tina Turner's Simply The Best or Queen's We Are the Champions. Failing that, we need a new composition that we can all rally round - preferably sung by Leona Lewis. For obvious reasons, Rhyddian would not be an option!

Robert Burns
12-02-08, 13:02
Great Britain is England; England is Great Britain.

Add the other bits with the druids in and you get The United Kingdom!


<Stand back proudly and waits for the inevitable backlash.>
Wondering if to just ban him now for the pleasure of all scots, and welsh on the site or just let him rot in an almost replyless thread?

Phil E
12-02-08, 13:02
Wondering if to just ban him now for the pleasure of all scots, and welsh on the site or just let him rot in an almost replyless thread?

Your obviously not including yourself in that list are you Bruce?

Pablo
12-02-08, 13:02
Your obviously not including yourself in that list are you Bruce?

You must be new here... Robbie's a dyed-in-the-wool, woad-painting, haggis-munching, bagpipe-playing, Irn-Bru-drinking, kilt-wearing Scotty.
(that's enough stereotypes for this thread!)

Phil E
12-02-08, 13:02
You must be new here... Robbie's a dyed-in-the-wool, woad-painting, haggis-munching, bagpipe-playing, Irn-Bru-drinking, kilt-wearing Scotty.
(that's enough stereotypes for this thread!)

Who has left his own country to live in a land of criminals and koalas. Then he castigates me for being patriotic? :eek:

Deeps
12-02-08, 21:02
Who has left his own country to live in a land of criminals and koalas.

A little respect for your elders and betters would not go amiss methinks.

Deeps
12-02-08, 21:02
Who has left his own country to live in a land of criminals and koalas.

A little respect for your elders and betters would not go amiss methinks.:Looser:

Davet
13-02-08, 17:02
Originally Posted by Phil E http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/images3/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=38116#post38116)
Pre-game pep talk before facing England: "Look what these *******s have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and they only live in them for a fortnight every 12 months. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English - and that's who you are playing this afternoon."
Phil Bennett (1977)


Cue "Life of Brian"

Phil E
14-02-08, 18:02
A little respect for your elders and betters would not go amiss methinks.:Looser:

Couldnt agree with you more. So as he is younger than me.................:o

Greg Collins
14-02-08, 20:02
Cue "Life of Brian"

Why what did that b*st*rd Brian ever do for us?

Phil E
14-02-08, 20:02
Why what did that b*st*rd Brian ever do for us?

Roads
Sanitation
The Aquaducts

Oh hang on......................that was the Romanians

SimonSmith
15-02-08, 01:02
Splitter!

Greg Collins
15-02-08, 14:02
LOL and wincing in pain - stop it!