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biocazman79
13-02-08, 23:02
It may be a case that I have never seen it before but watching two local teams in the first round of the cup tonight.
Red 10 runs into the referee in open play and gets sin-binned for barging the referee.

Is this right?

cymrubach
14-02-08, 00:02
It may be a case that I have never seen it before but watching two local teams in the first round of the cup tonight.
Red 10 runs into the referee in open play and gets sin-binned for barging the referee.

Is this right?

It's contexual, I have to assume the ref felt it was deliberate, in which case yes YC is acceptable, if it was accidental, (and I'd like to know your interpretation of what you saw) than I think extremely harsh.

Andyr8603
14-02-08, 09:02
It is contextual, however, I would argue that if the barging is 'deliberate' then it must be a Red Card, if it was 'careless', i.e. might have been able to avoid, but nevertheless made contact, then Yellow, if it is a case of completely unavoidable contact then its is 'play-on' sorry number 3, 10, 15 or whatever player its is, for getting in your way. I got in the way a few weeks ago and a player, haed-down attempted bind on with me thinking I was a fellow player, very embarrasing. Like to see the incident mentioned though, an interesting one.

Dickie E
14-02-08, 09:02
I wonder what Law was broken - unfair play maybe? Most 10.4 laws specifically say opponent.

Dixie
14-02-08, 10:02
Acts contrary to good sportsmanship usually covers it! 10.4(k)

Gareth-Lee Smith
14-02-08, 11:02
Good call Dixie

Toby Warren
14-02-08, 12:02
There was a very uhm 'robust' debate on this topic a few weeks ago - hang around and you will see some people who argue that it is red or nothing and others who will support the YC.

Padster
14-02-08, 12:02
I was advised last season that some teams will look at where the ref positions themselves and play towards him in the hope of creating space or an opportunity. I realise some people will be surprised by this cynicism :D :D

dave_clark
14-02-08, 13:02
in which case you'd make the call (guess?) that they got an advantage from it, and call a scrum? especially if you think they're doing it deliberately...

Wert Twacky
14-02-08, 13:02
Some teams are coached to run at the referee (not necassarily run in to) as like someone else said they'll create a space for the attack when they (hopefully) move out of the way. Cycnical thought, but it does happen and there's nothing illegal about and I think quite shrewd on the part of the coaches.
Having said that, I've been knocked over by a player running at me and have to say feel it was my own fault for being too flat-footed. Once it's happened to you once, it's a damn good incentive to stay on your toes and move your arse!

Refs will always get knocked/barged into by players, just look at Chris White in the WC. It happens at all levels.

If a player deliberately barges/knocks you in frusutration then it has to be a RC, but if you get in the way - tough one. I can't see it's a yellow personally.

Apology, scrum to attack and note to self to move alot quicker.

David J.
14-02-08, 14:02
As a a defender, I've used the block line of sight between the ball carrier and myself.

Surprise!

Davet
14-02-08, 14:02
If the ref gets in the way then he must expect to be barged from time to time.

If this was following a dispute with 10 earlier and was clearly avoidable then Red Card.

But in most cases I would say play on, and the ref should stay aware of where play is going.

Dixie
14-02-08, 14:02
Refs will always get knocked/barged into by players, just look at Chris White in the WC. It happens at all levels. ... Apology, scrum to attack and note to self to move alot quicker.


As a a defender, I've used the block line of sight between the ball carrier and myself. I think the elite refs and the newbies are more prone to this than the mid-tier, because by L.11 we've usually learned to be behind the maul/ruck/scrum instead of on the offside line or the line of the tunnel. Newbies tend to get caught out of position more frequently, and the elite boys take different positions because of what they can delegate to their TJ's.

That said, there's always the possibility of turnover ball catching you out while you are searching for the ball somewhere it isn't. Generally, as mentioned - apologise, note to self etc.:Looser:

ex-lucy
14-02-08, 14:02
i saw Andrew Small get unceremoniously barged on the try line by a defender, about a week ago on tv. He, Small, said sorry and got on with the game.

i have seen a level 6 ref get completely taken out ("sit down") by a no8 pick up from the back of a ruck when diving for the try line. The ref got up, wiped himself down, pointed at the 8 and said "do that again and you're off buddy. Scrum down attacking side ball."

Diff refs have diff takes on the matter depending on moods, context etc.

truck'n'trailor
14-02-08, 15:02
Slightly different question: if the ball hits the ref, or a player runs into the ref, we have the opportunity (if it is material) to stop play and award a scrum.

However, what if the ref gets in the way of a covering defender and thus allows the ball carrier to score a try? Cannot find anywhere in the Law book that would legitimately allow us to award anything other than a try.

Thoughts?

Toby Warren
14-02-08, 16:02
The only time I get hit is at the kick through when the receiver runs it back, no matter what line I take I appear to be a magnet for the ball carrier. The tempatation to drop the shoulder and dump tackle him is sometimes very hard to resist.

Any tips suggestions where to place myself?

Toby Warren
14-02-08, 16:02
Slightly different question: if the ball hits the ref, or a player runs into the ref, we have the opportunity (if it is material) to stop play and award a scrum.

However, what if the ref gets in the way of a covering defender and thus allows the ball carrier to score a try? Cannot find anywhere in the Law book that would legitimately allow us to award anything other than a try.

Thoughts?

I agree - if the ref gets in the way of a defender tough. Not sure I agree with it but that is how it is.

Dixie
14-02-08, 16:02
Slightly different question: if the ball hits the ref, or a player runs into the ref, we have the opportunity (if it is material) to stop play and award a scrum.

However, what if the ref gets in the way of a covering defender and thus allows the ball carrier to score a try? ... Thoughts?

I'm not sure the bit in red is accurate. While many refs will in equity offer a scrum, it doesn't seem to be covered in law, so the ref is open to challenge for doing so.

Obstructing a covering defender is more difficult to deal with, because while the attacker is certainly attacking, the defender may not be able to put in an effective tackle - either because he's a poor defender or because he's not in the ideal position. I'd be inclined to wave play on.

Padster
14-02-08, 17:02
The only time I get hit is at the kick through when the receiver runs it back, no matter what line I take I appear to be a magnet for the ball carrier. The tempatation to drop the shoulder and dump tackle him is sometimes very hard to resist.

Any tips suggestions where to place myself?

I was advised to take a wider position when this occurs and it is most effective when you are on your own. It opens up your view of both attackers and defenders. You don't need to get too close but it is important that you see what most players are doing.

truck'n'trailor
15-02-08, 09:02
Dixie,

Law 6.A.8 (f)
The referee must blow the whistle when the ball or the ball carrier touches the referee and either team gains an advantage from this.

So my original question still stands.

chopper15
15-02-08, 11:02
I was advised to take a wider position when this occurs and it is most effective when you are on your own. It opens up your view of both attackers and defenders. You don't need to get too close but it is important that you see what most players are doing.

This rarely happens to a 'good' ref? They have the inherent instinct to read the game . . good full back's positioning f'rinstance!

If it happens too often you should consider permanent TJ's duties, rather than irritating us fans!

Toby Warren
15-02-08, 11:02
This rarely happens to a 'good' ref? They have the inherent instinct to read the game . . good full back's positioning f'rinstance!

If it happens too often you should consider permanent TJ's duties, rather than irritating us fans!


Top advice as always Chopper :chin: - remind me when was it yuo said you were going to don the refs shirt and give it a go? :)

Dinks
15-02-08, 12:02
This rarely happens to a 'good' ref? They have the inherent instinct to read the game . . good full back's positioning f'rinstance!

If it happens too often you should consider permanent TJ's duties, rather than irritating us fans!

Another tiresome (and needless) provocative comment from Chopper!

From your posts Chopper, I don't doubt your knowledge of the laws, but I do question how much 'feel' you have for the game. In a universe of grey areas you only see in black and white.

Wert Twacky
15-02-08, 12:02
Lizban - here, here on the remark to Chopper!

Chopper - one presumes you extracting the urine with a wry smile regarding telling refs who get bumped occasionally to give up. Otherwise, let us know when you're going to referee a game as I'd love to watch you get dumped on your ar*e!

Will.Q
15-02-08, 13:02
It is absolutely impossible for a referee to go through his/her career without getting in the way from time to time. Even the very best referees get caught out, the very best.

I just go back to what somebody once said. If I get hit and nobody gains an advantage, I'll play on. If somebody does, scrum back to team going forward.

The one in defence is a good question. Seriously, what would you do if you clearly blocked a tackle and the attacking team scored? I think you'd have to apologise, let the try stand and just take it on the chin.

I'll ask the players to ask me to move if they think I'm in their way. "Ref, left" is an example. I'm quite happy with that and I'm happy with physical contact if it is just a slight nudge on my arm or shoulder and a request to shift one way or the other. We have to be flexible. We're not there for everybody to watch us. The earlier post where the No.8 drove into the ref and the ref told him off, school boy style, isn't my style or one I like. The No.8 clearly didn't mean to do it.

Dixie
15-02-08, 14:02
Would appreciate your views on whether a player running into a ref, rather than a ball hitting the ref, can result in a scrum. Justification?

chopper15
15-02-08, 14:02
Another tiresome (and needless) provocative comment from Chopper! .

Needless, Dinks?

I didn't think refs were that sensitve!

Perhaps I should learn to decipher those little face thingys?:bday:

Toby Warren
15-02-08, 15:02
Needless, Dinks?

I didn't think refs were that sensitve!

Perhaps I should learn to decipher those little face thingys?:bday:

And we all note no answer to the question of when are we going to see you in refs kit giving somthing back to the game at grass roots level?

Come on Chopper give it a go and see if it changes your views (or is that a little bit to far out of your pitchside supporters comfort zone?)

Greg Collins
15-02-08, 15:02
This rarely happens to a 'good' ref? They have the inherent instinct to read the game . . good full back's positioning f'rinstance!

If it happens too often you should consider permanent TJ's duties, rather than irritating us fans!

Well I've just got off crutches following my accident whilst TJ'ing and the ribs have been upgraded to cracked following an X-Ray (original dialnosis was based on no X-Ray) so I'd beg to differ!

cymrubach
15-02-08, 15:02
Would appreciate your views on whether a player running into a ref, rather than a ball hitting the ref, can result in a scrum. Justification?

Of course it can, consider that you interfered with the runner (your obstruction) and by doing so you disadvantaged the defending side. (consider yourself accidently offside :wink: ) stopping a tackle, then blow up but award the scrum to the attacking side.

OB..
15-02-08, 15:02
Strictly speaking the laws only cover the case of the ball or the ball-carrier touching the referee (6.A.10).

I have seen referees in top level matches give a scrum when a defender ran into them. It makes sense to me to allow the referee to use his judgement. It is the inverse of materiality!

cymrubach
15-02-08, 15:02
OB, totally agree mine was just 1 example. (and I had assumed that when he said a player ran into you he had meant while carrying the ball....) :o

biocazman79
15-02-08, 19:02
Sorry guys should have made clear. At the time the incident happened the scores were level and red were a man up as white already had a man in the bin.

Red 10 was tracking back to defend with his eye on a ruck. It was a good natured game with penatlies for nothing more than offside.

If any team was the dirtier towards the end of the second half and in extra time it was the white side.

Will.Q
15-02-08, 19:02
Would appreciate your views on whether a player running into a ref, rather than a ball hitting the ref, can result in a scrum. Justification?


My justification would be Law 6.A.10 - If the ball or the ball carrier touches the referee and neither team gains an advantage, play continues. If either team gains an advantage in the field of play, the referee orders a scrum and the team that last played the ball has the throw in.

Adam
12-04-08, 16:04
I think the Law 20.4 covers the issue over the referee getting in the way of the defender and effectively enabling a try to be scored.

Law 20.4 (d):

'Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or
irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward
before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving
forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.'

Ian_Cook
13-04-08, 09:04
I think the Law 20.4 covers the issue over the referee getting in the way of the defender and effectively enabling a try to be scored.

Law 20.4 (d):

'Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or
irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward
before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving
forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.'


Thats the catch-all isn't it? If I had this happen to me, i.e. a non-ball carrying player ran into me and I thought it had advantaged/disadvantaged either team, and my assessor asked me to justify my awarding of a scrum, I would use this. A player running into the referee could certainly be termed an "irregularity" and it is not covered by any other Law AFAIK.

ex-lucy
13-04-08, 19:04
i wonder what the decision is when a ref takes out a player.
This has happened to me three times now this season ...
1. play approached try line from pick and drive play in muddy conditions.
i crouch down to get a better look and as i blow to award the try my hand swings up to the vertical and smacks an oncoming player in the face ... out for the count.

2. Advantage called and arms comes out and smacks a nearby player ... knocks him over.

3. y'day. black tackles ref 10 ... i am behind red 10. red 10 goes backward and crashes in to me and cracks his head on my knee. Out for the count.
Wakes up and plays a blinder. Skipper thanks me afterwards.

OB..
13-04-08, 19:04
Too close to call?

Phil E
13-04-08, 20:04
as i blow to award the try my hand swings up to the vertical and smacks an oncoming player in the face ... out for the count.

2. Advantage called and arms comes out and smacks a nearby player ... knocks him over.

You must have arms like Popeye? yuk, yuk, yuk.

Ian_Cook
13-04-08, 21:04
i wonder what the decision is when a ref takes out a player.
This has happened to me three times now this season ...
1. play approached try line from pick and drive play in muddy conditions.
i crouch down to get a better look and as i blow to award the try my hand swings up to the vertical and smacks an oncoming player in the face ... out for the count.

2. Advantage called and arms comes out and smacks a nearby player ... knocks him over.

3. y'day. black tackles ref 10 ... i am behind red 10. red 10 goes backward and crashes in to me and cracks his head on my knee. Out for the count.
Wakes up and plays a blinder. Skipper thanks me afterwards.

On occasion 1 & 2, one of your TJ's should have binned you for a swinging arm tackle. :biggrin:

On occasion 3 it was accidental contact, however, seriously, if the player was "out for the count" it might have been unwise of you to allow him to continue. Did you check him for concussion, and did you check up on him later, after the match?

ex-lucy
14-04-08, 10:04
Ian .. i thought it pragmatic not to insist on 10 not playing due to concussion caused by by knee ... i left it up to the capt to decide whether 10 could continue ..
same as 1 ... capt said the player was ok just a bit dazed.
Rumours of a rematch with George Foreman are ill founded.

beckett50
14-04-08, 11:04
YC for examples of foul play:) :wow:

ExHookah
22-07-08, 03:07
i wonder what the decision is when a ref takes out a player.
This has happened to me three times now this season ...
1. play approached try line from pick and drive play in muddy conditions.
i crouch down to get a better look and as i blow to award the try my hand swings up to the vertical and smacks an oncoming player in the face ... out for the count.

2. Advantage called and arms comes out and smacks a nearby player ... knocks him over.

3. y'day. black tackles ref 10 ... i am behind red 10. red 10 goes backward and crashes in to me and cracks his head on my knee. Out for the count.
Wakes up and plays a blinder. Skipper thanks me afterwards.

Bloody Bullying Referee!

Pablo
22-07-08, 11:07
While refereeing a welcoming Herts club who play in red, black and green, I once signalled a scrum advantage to the visitors, and in doing so inadvertently smacked the home scrum half in the mouth. When the cry of "for f**k's sake, ref!" went out loud enough for the players in the adjacent hockey match to stop and stare, I stopped the game, got him looked at by the physio, exchanged apologies and then penalised him. His captain told him off for swearing at the ref, in spite of the circumstances, and he was as good as gold for the rest of the game (a thrilling 29-29 draw).

Emmet Murphy
22-07-08, 14:07
Hard but fair Pablo, hard but fair :D

Pablo
22-07-08, 14:07
Thankyouverymuch *bows* :D