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ex-lucy
18-02-08, 10:02
blue attacking ball in hand 10-15m out from red try line.
4 backs on 2. Handling been ok but not brilliant up to then. Good strong defence by red up to then.
One of the red backs goes for the interception, knocks on, fairly deliberately ... arm goes out ... "advantage blue".
blue centre who would have rcvd the pass screams "oh, for ****s sake, ref"

This is the 3rd or 4th occasion of such an outburst from a blue a player.

FlipFlop
18-02-08, 10:02
PT? not sure.

But did you think about the YC?

beckett50
18-02-08, 10:02
Would the try (more than likely) have been scored but for the actions of Red? If so then PT.

As for the YC? There is a case that the offence by the Red centre was cynical foul play and so warrants a YC.

The outburst by the Blue player? If you have warned him about his conduct already then a YC should also be shown to him.

ex-lucy
18-02-08, 10:02
flipflop .... not at that moment ... i believed, by reversing the penalty and awarding a penalty against the blue centre then explaining why to the skipper with further assertions to request that he control the verbals from his team, that the blues might learn ....

they didnt.

ex-lucy
18-02-08, 10:02
interesting Beckett ... very interesting... i am glad i put this up.
i didnt think of that outcome ...
penalty try & YC for red centre & YC for blue centre!!
On hindsight, this may have had a better outcome to the match as a whole.
As it was, my new tolerant attitude bit me on the behind a bit.
For some reason though for 10-15 mins after this incident blues shut up and played some good rugby so i thought i had resolved the situation and got control.
little did i know ...

Andyr8603
18-02-08, 10:02
In depends on a referees tolerance level. For me I would stop play, call the Blue player and each captain, explain that I would have given a Penalty Try for the deliberate knock-on, but that it is now reversed for the outburst and give the Blue player a final warning for his comments. I only say that because you tell us that this had happended previously in the game with this player. He has now cost his team 5 or more probably 7 points and that might appear to be sufficient punishment. If, however, this was the first incident of such behaviour I might have considered awarding the PT and having a strong word with the blue player, again it depends on how the comment was made, was it a frustrated 'oh for ----- sake ref' or did he run to you, fire in his eys, and shout it straight in your face, you get where I am coming from.

FlipFlop
18-02-08, 10:02
Personally from what you've descibed:
Minimum YC to the Red player for the deliberate knock-on. If the Blue handling had been sufficient that you deemed a try was probable, then go for the PT as well.

If you've warned the blue player before, then possibly over turn the PK. Don't think it is YC or RC territory. But I'd be inclined to just give a warning. If you've been down that route already, then.....

The language from Blue, comes from frustration with a deliberate cynical play by red. You've increased his, and blues, frustrations, by doing nothing about red. YC'ing red, and then overturning the PK for the language, would have sent a stronger message to blue, but also a message to red. Possibly even mention that you were considering the PT, until blue opened his mouth.......

But ultimately - you were the only one there. Do you feel the result of the incident was equitable?

ex-lucy
18-02-08, 10:02
equitable? at the time, yes, but now with the benefit of hindsight and your opinions .. i am not so sure.
On further reflection, i am not sure the attempted interception was a YC offence... it was an attempted bit of good skill that went awry. I believe it was merely a penalty offence. I believe that blue would possibly have scored a try but probably? ... probably not.
Another referee may have seen matters differently.
Afterwards, Blue coach wasnt happy ... (see bad experiences)

tim White
18-02-08, 11:02
Not many players try to catch a ball with one hand.:rolleyes:

Most players try to catch the ball with palms uppermost.:rolleyes:

Are you still happy that he tried to catch it? If not, and the intercepted pass was credible, it HAS to be a PT. YC I am not comfortable with for the defender. YC for Blue centre sound OTT, pick another occasion to turnover a penalty BUT WARN HIM.

beckett50
18-02-08, 11:02
equitable? at the time, yes, but now with the benefit of hindsight and your opinions .. i am not so sure.
On further reflection, i am not sure the attempted interception was a YC offence... it was an attempted bit of good skill that went awry. I believe it was merely a penalty offence. I believe that blue would possibly have scored a try but probably? ... probably not.
Another referee may have seen matters differently.
Afterwards, Blue coach wasnt happy ... (see bad experiences)

OK, so if you are saying that it was an attempted interception why the PK? Surely just a scrum advantage for the 'accidental' knock-on.

I know that these things happen quickly and we have to make snap decisions.

Dixie
18-02-08, 12:02
I would have given a Penalty Try for the deliberate knock-on, but that it is now reversed for the outburst and give the Blue player a final warning for his comments.

Interesting. I'll post another thread on this to avoid hijacking this one

Account Deleted
18-02-08, 12:02
From you initial post

"... goes for the interception, knocks on, fairly deliberately ... arm goes out ... "advantage blue"...

If you felt he "goes for the interception" haw can it be a "fairly deliberate" knock on?

Surely a scrum at most. Yellow to blue ofr the outburst as below.

Had you felt it was a clear K-O then I would expect a different wording.

Assuming I'd felt it was deliberate my line would be Pen (PT if probable try etc) yellow to Red and then wrt Blue a yellow if there had been warnings.

Hand position etc woudl be a good guide to Red's intent.

Andyr8603
18-02-08, 13:02
If you are going to YC Blue, how can it be a scrum re-start? 10.4 (k) and/or 6.A.5

SimonSmith
18-02-08, 13:02
Tend to agree with FF.

If the knock on was deliberate, 4 on 2, then I think you have to have a PT and YC at least as part of your thinking.

I can understand Blue's frustratiojn, and struggle to categorize it as penalizable dissent.

Sanction Red as appropriate, and simply tell Blue that you'll handle the situation and his screaming isn't helping. No need to go overboard, and if handled correctly can help turn Blue around to you.

Andyr8603
18-02-08, 14:02
I think that is a fair posting, all I would say is that this is contiuning misconduct for the Blue player, he has shouted this previously in this match and there comes a point where you authority is being held in question, there are other factors that are important here. What message is being given to the other player? Do they now think they get 2 or 3 opportunities to dissent before anything will be done, if that happens, does it out more pressure on you as the ref? Are there youngsters watching/listening? What impression is being given to them? Its always a balance and I believe that we, as Refs, take the equitable and proportionate line in the vast majority of cases.

ex-lucy
18-02-08, 14:02
SimonS, taken out of context you make some valid points (as usual) and i will think about what you say ... but i believe Andy also makes some valid points ....
it was 3rd or 4th occasion by blue for screaming at me for decisions ... i was beg to think that blues were disobeying my authority and the skipper wasnt controlling his team .. i think i needed to show some authority .. the fact that for 10/15 mins we didnt have any backchat from blues i think showed this to be a good decision. I felt that overturning the penalty (PT?) for the dissent was sufficient punishment on that occasion.
yes, youngsters were watching.
out of conntext in a similar scenario i now believe that i shall award a PT with cards for Blue centre and red centre.
in context, this being 3rd/4th outburst with swearing .. i believe i made the correct decision.

OB..
18-02-08, 15:02
I don't see how we can judge the actual situation, but we can suggest the questions to be asked.

Would the Blue outburst have earned him yellow in mid-field, given his previous behaviour? If so, you can give it, even if you do not penalise his team.

Was the Red knock-on deliberate? If so it was foul play.

Did the Red knock-on prevent a probable try? If so, and it was foul play, award a PT. Yellow is a judgement call, but the IRB Ruling said a card is appropriate for an intentional foul that prevents a probable try.

Davet
18-02-08, 15:02
I agree entirely with OB.

ex-lucy
18-02-08, 17:02
good qs/ points OB.


Would the Blue outburst have earned him yellow in mid-field, given his previous behaviour? If so, you can give it, even if you do not penalise his team.
hmm, probably not y'day, i was trying to keep players on the pitch, but on hindsight may be blues needed this as a pointer towards their illdiscipline and the match needed it. On hindsight i should not 'try and keep players on the pitch' for the sake of it and keeping my YC record low. (slaps hand)


Was the Red knock-on deliberate? If so it was foul play.
tough one .. yes .. he went for the interception .. but did he intend to knock it on, i dont think so .. i think he went to try and intercept and go thru with it.


Did the Red knock-on prevent a probable try? If so, and it was foul play, award a PT. Yellow is a judgement call, but the IRB Ruling said a card is appropriate for an intentional foul that prevents a probable try.
i dont think it was a probable try. 10/15m out. one more defender. Blue Centre hadnt been hot with handling. Blues handling up to that point wasnt hot. they were losing 5 nil and had had some chances and not converted them.