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Mat 04
07-03-08, 10:03
1) Defending scrum half follows around a scrum, as the ball is comming out in the attacking scrum half hands, the defending scrum half uses his foot to kick or dislodge the ball from his hands. legal? Ive seen this and had the same discussion with other referees.

2) Open play, player on ground, ball presented, opposition player in a legal position uses his foot to kick/dislodge the ball - Im pretty sure this one is illegal just cant find the law.

3) If the above is illegal as I suspect the same law will probably cover this scenario too.... player is jogging into the in goal about to score a try, as he leans to place ball on the floor a defending player uses his foot ot kick/dislodge the ball from his hands.

Emmet Murphy
07-03-08, 11:03
Number 1 I'd penalise for dangerous play - tell him to use his hands to dislodge the ball not his foot.

Number 2 seems fine to me - play on (he does need to come through the gate and stay on his feet, assuming this is a tackle situation)

Number 3 would depend on the circumstances - maybe looking at a PT if it is dangerous (as in scenario 1) and the attacker clearly didn't ground it. If it looks 50/50 whether the attacker grounded it before the other player kicked it out, maybe award a try and reprimand the player who kicked the ball from his hands.

Deeps
07-03-08, 11:03
1) Defending scrum half follows around a scrum, as the ball is comming out in the attacking scrum half hands, the defending scrum half uses his foot to kick or dislodge the ball from his hands. legal? Ive seen this and had the same discussion with other referees.

2) Open play, player on ground, ball presented, opposition player in a legal position uses his foot to kick/dislodge the ball - Im pretty sure this one is illegal just cant find the law.

3) If the above is illegal as I suspect the same law will probably cover this scenario too.... player is jogging into the in goal about to score a try, as he leans to place ball on the floor a defending player uses his foot ot kick/dislodge the ball from his hands.


Coming at these as a first reaction i.e. without intensively trawling through law, my response would be

1) Legal (if not virtually impossible to all but the very skilled) if it is not dangerous play, if he has been on side at all times and has not made contact or used the opposition scrum players as leverage.

2) Again legal and no problem provided the use of the boot does not constitute dangerous/reckless play remembering that the onus is on the player on the ground to play, get up and/or move away from the ball. Presenting the ball only does not absolve him from the other commitments. Man on his feet is king remember unless his actions are dangerous/foul play.

3) Again, I think your only criteria here is dangerous play which you have to judge at the time.

Dixie
07-03-08, 11:03
Like Emmett, I would penalise 1 for dangerous play. There is a parallel with 3, where I also agree with Emmett - PT for dangerous play if ball not grounded; if grounded, admonishment, and I would restart with a PK to the scoring side. Justification: commonality with Law 15.6(i).

As for 2, I would still be alive to the possibility of dangerous play, but see much more scope for the player on his feet to act legally. We also need to think about the idea of "presenting" the ball.

The requirement is immediate release. This requirement is expanded in the Laws, such that one way to achieve immediate release is to push the ball back towards your own side. If your coach then tells you that as part of "immediate release" you are entitled to keep your hand on the ball for as long as it takes until one of your team mates gets there to pick it up, I suggest you have gone beyond the natural meaning of both "immediate" and "release".

The ball should be available on the deck for the defender to kick; if you choose illegally to put your hand in harm's way, is it the ref's job to protect your hand from harm? Perhaps - but I'd view it like rucking a player. If the defender deliberately targets your hand because he's frustrated you are illegally trying to slow the ball down, I'll reverse the PK against you (holding on) to penalise his dangerous play. But if his boot accidentally and incidentally makes contact with your illegal hand while he's trying to play the ball - take the pain, grit your teeth and think about whether you were sensible to bring it all on yourself.

Phil E
07-03-08, 11:03
Law 15
(i) When a tackled player reaches out to ground the ball on or over
the goal line to score a try, an opponent may pull the ball from the
players possession, but must not kick the ball.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

That doesnt answer point 3, but is the only relevant reference I can find in the law book.

The only other reference I can find is not kicking the ball in the scrum, which doesn't apply to your 3 points.

However if the ball is in hand and is kicked I would say that is dangerous play. If you dont penalise it and it continues, its going to end up with someone getting their fingers broken, which cant be right?

dave_clark
07-03-08, 11:03
i'm sure that we've had the discussion before about kicking the ball out of someone's hand when they are about to touch it down, and the agreement was that you couldn't...

EDIT

yeah, as Phil said...

Rawling
07-03-08, 13:03
Just out of interest, how often is a penalty kick going to be awarded under that Law quoted (15(i)?) instead of a penalty try?
Or do you award both if the ball is grounded before the kick occurs?

Dixie
07-03-08, 14:03
Just out of interest, how often is a penalty kick going to be awarded under that Law quoted (15(i)?) instead of a penalty try?
Or do you award both if the ball is grounded before the kick occurs?

If the ball is grounded befor the kick occurs, try where scored, and a PK to the scoring team at the centre to restart the game. Otherwise, PT in almost every case: the exception being if the try is scored after - and despite - the attempted kick. I that case, allow the player to be credited with the try having played advantage. You can still card the kicker if necessary.

AlanT
09-03-08, 18:03
...player is jogging into the in goal about to score a try, as he leans to place ball on the floor a defending player uses his foot ot kick/dislodge the ball from his hands.

I had something similar in a match last season, but it was an attacker diving over the line with a couple of defenders hangiing on. As he was clearly about to ground the ball for a try a standing defender kicked the ball cleanly (ie only contacted the ball) out of his hands.

I instictively blew for penalty try because it just looked wrong.

Interestingly the kicking player said "but it's OK the kick the ball out of a scrum half's hands". I said it wasn't and that I'd penalise that, too.

The incident was in the far corner from most of the spectators, who were mystified by what had happened (I couldn't come up with a secondary signal!), so they assumed they had all missed some foul play.

No arguments about the decision once explained.

ex-lucy
09-03-08, 23:03
wasnt there a similar incident in 1st half of Ire v Wales match at the back of a ruck, O'Connell kicked the ball out of the Welsh 9's hands ... "play on, ball out" said Barnes (i think).

Davet
10-03-08, 00:03
I don't think you can generalise about these. The illegality in each case would be dangerous play, and that would depend on exactly what was done, and the way it was done.

I think the tendancy, maybe even the default position, would be that it is very difficult to do this without being dangerous.

Gareth-Lee Smith
10-03-08, 00:03
Ignore...