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View Full Version : Four items if intrigue this afternoon



didds
17-09-05, 20:09
Society Ref awarded/ddecided/said... (bearing in mind this is now the 3rd week of the new season)

1) player in scrumhalf position at a lineout couldn't join the line and lift another
( no mention of numbers etc just that he couldn;t do it).

2) knock on 5m out by attacker rolls in goal and is touched down - 22m drop out awarded

3) full time blown on penalty award

4) blue player standing stock still 1m in front of a reciver from a kick gets knocked by a chaser trying to get to the catcher/ball (failing because of the player's proximity) - chaser penalised for playing the man without the ball.


Now - this isn;lt just a generic whinge (we own anyway ;-) but this was a society ref... how does this happen? Items 2, 3 and 4 are yonks old situations whilst item 1 is "new" - but how do society refs NOT get told this?

didds

chef11
17-09-05, 22:09
1. I have not been advised of any change in law reguarding the scrum half not being able to come in.
2.A knock on in the field of play is a scrum at the point of infraction even if the ball goes in goal.
3.Full time is not blown at a penelty.It is blown once the tean kicks into touch or at the next stopage.
4. If that was penelized,the that was BS.
`

jboulet4648
18-09-05, 01:09
2) knock on 5m out by attacker rolls in goal and is touched down - 22m drop out awarded

I can see the rational here...scrum advantage being played...advantage was player touching ball down and taking 22 drop......although I probably would have handled it differently


3) full time blown on penalty award

TSK TSK!



4) blue player standing stock still 1m in front of a reciver from a kick gets knocked by a chaser trying to get to the catcher/ball (failing because of the player's proximity) - chaser penalised for playing the man without the ball.

Is this a new law????



Now - this isn;lt just a generic whinge (we own anyway ;-) but this was a society ref... how does this happen? Items 2, 3 and 4 are yonks old situations whilst item 1 is "new" - but how do society refs NOT get told this?


Obviously someone needs to direct this poor soul to rugbyrefs.com so he can touch up on his law knowledge. :rolleyes:

Bryan
18-09-05, 02:09
Didds,

I find it normal that there are referees out there who haven't picked up a lawbook in years and who don't know all the laws. Yes, it may already be the 3rd week of the season, but who's to say that this wouldn't happen in the 23rd week 3 seasons from now as well? We can only hope that someone offers this referee a quiet pint, pulls out the lawbook, and has a word about the finer points of the match. I don't think you were whinging about this at all, but rather stating what we already know- there are good and less-than-good refs in every society. They are, however, needed all the same.

As long as your players had fun out there in a safe environment (which to me is the paramount objection), then be happy you've got that sorted out. Many referees out there do not spend time like us on forums like these debating the finer points of the law and getting positive critical feedback. Some are out there for a 'run around the park', even the society refs. That is why "This happens". There are society referees who will be C2 for Life, and are quite happy in that position because they still enjoy the game.

Sometimes you get the gold mine, sometimes you get the shaft.

-Bryan

madref
18-09-05, 10:09
Hi Didds

What level of game was this, I know that in our society some of the lower level games get new refs or refs that are going no were. I was in the situation myself last year as a new ref.

I made the odd (too many) errors and got on players and coaches back! This then caused discent and backchat which boardered on abuse.

Anyway back to the point if he was a new referee we all have to learn somewhere. A referee can not practice like players or coaches our practice comes in the middle and from advisors. He may well have know the law and just got flustered happened to me a couple of times last year.

There now that is me sticking up for the ref and putting his side forward.

Now - if he was not a new ref and going no were the mistake he made are unacceptable, although we can all have a bad game! If he was a ref with experience you have to ask yourself

1. Has he attended society meetings (I know we get about 50% of our active refs for main meetins and about 20% for area meetings)

2. Has he been wathced by an advisor recently you could think you are doing it correctly if you are not wathced you will never know. Advisors are as thin on the ground as refs. I know some societies (not mine!) tend to look after the top refs and some of the lower down refs get maybe one assesment a year. If the have a good game they pass there MOT and told to carry on. Anybody can raise their game for a big one, it is week in week out consistency that matters.

3. Was he fit enough for the game, this for me has been the biggest improvement to my game this year. I have been training with some of our elite and level 6 refs. They have got me looking from the beer swilling prop forward I was to quite a lean mean fit althelte. May even make the back row now of a second team lol. The fitter you are you are first there, see the offence manage it have enough puff to blow the whistle. FITNESS makes the difference between a good / average referee who is a safe pair of hands to a top class referee IMHO.

4. What was he like in the bar afterwards was he willing to listen to criticism, I always ask both captains and coaches after the game if there is anything they are not happy about. I tell them it is off the record and it will go no further than me and you. This gets you repspect and also can help your game. It can also help the guy next week if the coach our captain has got a point in law they are not sure about you can put it right for them.

Hope you get a referee that has a better game next week and you keep enjoying your rugby I did a cup match yesterday 69-0 bit of a mis-match bit all down to faster younger backs who were well drilled. They had trained for 2 hours before kick off practicing passing etc. I managed to train for 41 minutes in the first half and 38 in the second half (blew early!).

David

Robert Burns
18-09-05, 10:09
Whilst I do to a certain extend agree with what you say Brian, I must empathise with the players, they play to the laws (or try too) for which are laid down in the law book. If they play to that, but the referee doesn't, then the referee should really be picked up on it.

Didds,

Did you ask him about these points in the bar afterwards?


This is why (IMO) Referees need to be assessed at least once a year, if there are problems the assessor should be able to make their comments, if it's serious it can go further.

Robert Burns
18-09-05, 10:09
2) knock on 5m out by attacker rolls in goal and is touched down - 22m drop out awarded

I can see the rational here...scrum advantage being played...advantage was player touching ball down and taking 22 drop......although I probably would have handled it differently

Still no excuse though as the law clearly states it should be a defending 5m scrum.

Simon Griffiths
18-09-05, 11:09
Still no excuse though as the law clearly states it should be a defending 5m scrum.

I will admit that I'd always fall into this trap though. Despite knowing this Law full well (as it's the exception that proves the rule, per se) I have got it wrong a few times in exams, eventually I started getting it right in exams! Luckily it's never happened to me in a match (lucky me) but I expect that 99% of the time I would get it wrong because (whilst it is a Law in itself) it is contrary to other Laws - as I say, the exception that proves the rule.

As for the other three, fairly poor I have to admit - particulalrly 2 and 3. He could apply some cock-eyed logic to 4 and claim he could have run round him and I'd have penalised etc. but I still feel it was an eminantly poor decision.

ExHookah
18-09-05, 15:09
I actually had the knockon into in goal situation last week. Awarded the scrum for the knockon, but defending teams Number 8 asked if they could have the 22, asked about that being the greater advantage, but he accepted it when I told him it had to be the scrum.

jboulet4648
18-09-05, 16:09
Was this before or after you let the game end in a tie? I believe you are buying beers for all at the next society meeting......

Account Deleted
18-09-05, 17:09
Still no excuse though as the law clearly states it should be a defending 5m scrum.

Why do we not play advantage in this situation? I know what the Laws say but here the Law is an ass!

A 22 drop out must in almost evey case be better than a scrun on the 5.
Suely just use the definition of LAW 8. (Advantage taking precedence over most other Laws and Law 8.3 does not specify does not that it does not in the case of a Knock on in-goal or over the goal line (where the scrum would be at the place of infringement!)

This is a law [12.1 (c) & (d) ]that someone should be changing as it makes no sense at all.

ExHookah
18-09-05, 18:09
The tie was yesterday, not last week.

Point taken though ;)

OB..
18-09-05, 18:09
This provision was introduced in 1980, so it is a bit late to be moaning about it now!

I presume the rationale was that there is no reason why knocking on into in-goal should give a so much bigger advantage than other knock-ons.

Mike Whittaker
18-09-05, 20:09
.... this was a society ref... how does this happen? Items 2, 3 and 4 are yonks old situations whilst item 1 is "new" - but how do society refs NOT get told this?

didds

Please put into context.... what level was this game...

Last season I watched 2 competent teams (2nd XVs) and a competent ref. After the game players made some comment about the ref so I reminded them that second rate teams deserve second rate refs, and they had got better than that.

.. and the number of players we get who don't know the laws!!! Do the clubs not tell them???!!!! :)

didds
18-09-05, 21:09
Cheers Guys... appreciate your feedback and glad that I wasn't 100 miles away from what I understand the situations to be and have picked up here :-)

As I say we won so its no big deal (fir us anyway). Just wanted clarification allied to some ... surprise.

didds

didds
18-09-05, 21:09
Hi Didds

What level of game was this,


Its was a cup match but both sides play at Level 7. Not humungously high, but not really "low".



Anyway back to the point if he was a new referee we all have to learn somewhere. A referee can not practice like players or coaches our practice comes in the middle and from advisors. He may well have know the law and just got flustered happened to me a couple of times last year.


The ref in question has been seen around paddocks before so isn;t brand new. Point taken about no "training" available except "live" ... but some of these areas I thought were "bread and butter" areas ... But the point is accepted :-)


4. What was he like in the bar afterwards was he willing to listen to criticism,


dunno to be hoinest as I had to leave straight after the game. He never seemed "officous" or "off" during the game and to be fair to him (lest I apprear a total git!) he had a good rapport with the players

cheers

didds

didds
18-09-05, 21:09
robert - couldn;t make the bar afterwards as I had to dash off :-(

didds

didds
18-09-05, 21:09
level 7

didds

Deeps
18-09-05, 21:09
A 22 drop out must in almost every case be better than a scrum on the 5.

Marc,

Indeed this used to be the law, certainly when I was still playing a few years ago, however, the change came about because it was thought that a 22m drop out was just too much advantage for what was after all a fairly minor infringement.

Why overly reward the actions of a defence going backwards whose only positive contribution has been limited to forcing a knock on when the attacking side has been doing all the positive stuff. The defence have received their just reward but it is appropriate to the offence.

madref
18-09-05, 21:09
Hi Diddss

Reading what has been said at level 7 you should have got a ref that knew his bread and butter ! Thats all I am saying.


David

jboulet4648
18-09-05, 22:09
I know the law, I apply the law in practice, but this is again one of those areas where there is some openess for discussion.

Just to play devils advocate, what if the team with the advantage from the knock was far weaker in the scrum than the attacking side....say you know this from the entire match, how is awarding that team an advantage at the 5M any advantage at all?

Mike Whittaker
19-09-05, 00:09
level 7

didds

Would have expected better at level seven....

Reference other thread.... maybe he was a 9 +2 :)

OB..
19-09-05, 01:09
Indeed this used to be the law, certainly when I was still playing a few years ago, however, the change came about because it was thought that a 22m drop out was just too much advantage for what was after all a fairly minor infringement.More or less the same answer as mine, but you are a little out on the date. This is from the 1980 Law book:
Law 14.3 Drop out
"Except where the ball is knocked on or thrown forward or a try or goal is scored, if an attacking player kicks, carries or passes the ball and it travels into his opponents' In-goal either directly or after having touched a defender who does not wilfully attempt to stop, catch or kick it, and it is there
- grounded by a player of either team, or
- goes into touch-in-goal or over the dead-ball line
a drop out shall be awarded."

The exception meant you did not award a drop-out, so the only option was a scrum.

madref
19-09-05, 10:09
Hi

Even a 9 should have got most of this right IMHO.

David

Account Deleted
19-09-05, 13:09
Marc,

Indeed this used to be the law, certainly when I was still playing a few years ago, however, the change came about because it was thought that a 22m drop out was just too much advantage for what was after all a fairly minor infringement.

Why overly reward the actions of a defence going backwards whose only positive contribution has been limited to forcing a knock on when the attacking side has been doing all the positive stuff. The defence have received their just reward but it is appropriate to the offence.

The answer then is for the defence not to minor but to try and run out of defence, or kick to touch. Just seems wrong to me.

Account Deleted
19-09-05, 13:09
This provision was introduced in 1980, so it is a bit late to be moaning about it now!



Why? If the law is wrong what does the date it was written matter? If its a good law then fine.

The debate is still valid.

Robert Burns
19-09-05, 13:09
I don't think it is wrong, the team is playing positive rugby, why should they be penalised differently for a knock on at the least second? why let the defence of the hook for a minor handling error? They get the scrum, down to them to do something with it now.

OB..
19-09-05, 14:09
The point of quoting the date is that the provision has been around for 25+ years. That should imply it is widely accepted.

I think the law is right: why exact a swingeing penalty for a minor offence?

Davet
22-09-05, 14:09
A referee can not practice like players Madref

I make a point of training with my local club, where I am a VP. I do the fitness stuff with them, many of the run through and handling drills, touch rugby sessions etc. NO contact ('cos these days it hurts more than it ever used to!!) As an ex winger I tend to gravitate to the forwards ruck/maul/scrum/lineout sessions which give a good insight into what the guys are trying to achieve and how they go about it - I also ref them in the game sessions - not necessarily blowing to stop play, the coaches may want a move to develop - but running my lines and talking to them as in a game - and telling them when I would have whistled.

I get a lot from those sessions - I hope they get a bit too, and I am very grateful to the players and coaches for not only allowing but actively encouraging this participation.

chef11
22-09-05, 15:09
I am also an assistant coach for Southern Methodist Univ. and run my line s and talk to the players as we scrimmage.It has made a great improvement in myself but also in the way my team response to the referee a play in general.

Robert Burns
23-09-05, 08:09
Would have expected better at level seven....

Reference other thread.... maybe he was a 9 +2 :)
It wasn't me!!

:eek:

Simon Thomas
23-09-05, 17:09
pro-activity and fitness training noted davet !

as to Didds comments - all been said above but just to add that as a level 7 I would have been embarrassed over all 4 of the decisions - and if I carried on like that expect to be downgraded.
A Society level 7 (B2 in old currency) should know such Laws in detail, and be totally comfortable with his/her decision making.

Robert Burns
23-09-05, 18:09
Everytime I read your posts I feel I'm destined to be assessed by you this year, and that it will be a joyful occassion for all!!

lol

Mike Whittaker
23-09-05, 18:09
Everytime I read your posts I feel I'm destined to be assessed by you this year, and that it will be a joyful occassion for all!!

lol
You may rest assured Robert that if you come to Hampshire you will get a very warm welcome... where we are renowned for the fairness of our assessments.... :)

Simon Thomas
24-09-05, 14:09
Just have words with David Dibden or whoever necessary Robert, I am sure we can arrange a suitable exchange Saturday for you with a similar grade level Hampshire referee.

Mike Whittaker
24-09-05, 23:09
Rumour has it Robert that there is a ref who made a good job of a 4th XV game to day and is prepared to travel anywhere..... for a price. :)

Robert Burns
25-09-05, 10:09
What's the chance of Jersey?

;) :cool:

lol

Simon Thomas
25-09-05, 19:09
Ha ha Mike - my body is still on New Zealand time !
Was fun though and good bunch of lads - back to serious stuff next week with level 8 London SW4 match Saturday, and Ladies Prem 2 on Sunday !

Robert - Jersey are level 6 and Guernsey level 7 - and both at top end of their leagues, so not a practical exchange until you are a level 7 minimum.

Robert Burns
25-09-05, 20:09
Hoping the early regrade will give me that, as it's not happened yet so still on last years grading but have had nothing very challenging so far, few good midweek games coming up with Kings catubury v East Kent HPC (affiliated with Sarecens) and some city league games.

So will keep fingers crossed to be 7+1 soon, maybe 8+2 at worst, hoping that last report i got at the end of the season won't effect me as all my others were good.

Deeps
25-09-05, 21:09
Robert,

Expecting to be despatched to Jersey or Guernsey while on exchange to Hampshire might just incite rumblings of mutiny, whether one is entitled by grade or not!

Just as challenging, if not in travel alone, are the delights of the Isle of Wight. Close enough to the Channel Islands to share a similar climate the island offers various modes of travel, plane(!), hovercraft, SWATH ships, car ferries, steam railway, overground ex LT (1938 vintage) underground. There are four challenging rugby clubs and I can personally recommend the Derby between Sandown & Shanklin and Ventnor that I have had the pleasure of officiating two years running (&**%$$") as being as challenging as any Level 7 game, I should imagine.

If you decide to use the train from wherever you live (is it North or South of the Watford bypass?) and be tempted to partake of post match hospitality knowing that you have the train to sleep it off, beware of volume. Once ensconced on the delightful rattly overground underground train heading back to the ferry you may find your four pint Guinness head of steam a burden to you in the nether regions. Be advised that in addition to no comfort facilities on the train, which stops for several agonising minutes at each station, there are no such facilities in any of the very public stations either, of which the train driver will advise when he hears you cry out in pain. He will respond however to cries of 'For *$%^ sake, please hurry' and will attempt to coax an extra mile per hour out of the aged train to deposit you at the ferry terminal on Ryde Pier. Here relief may be found eventually, even if your offerings affect that day's Solent tidal predictions such that you miss the ferry because you have been leaning on the marble for so long.

Robert Burns
25-09-05, 21:09
ha ha sounds good.

As an underground signalling engineer, I resemble your coments on our (your) tube stocks, lol.

I normally go by train, but as I no longer drink (bar the odd white wine, been almost a month now and I can really feel the difference) I can enjoy the entertainment wherever I go (even if it happens to be Winchester, who were very delightful when I ref'd them in London).

I'm sure clubs are fairly similar in all regions.