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rodeneal
27-03-08, 15:03
handbags erupt.

I did not see the first punch thrown.

yellow's team mates pull player, who took a swing, back by the arms (both arms now held and player can't defend himself)

green hooker throws one of the weakest punches I have seen on a rugby pitch at restrainted player.

Told green hooker if he had connected properly I would have RCed him for a cowards punch, he told me that other team punched him. I point out that he has just admitted to retaliation. :nono: I YCed for retaliation.

Thoughts?

Dixie
27-03-08, 16:03
Hi Rodeneal - welcome to the forum. Quite correct, by the sound of it. Only you know the context of the game, and as you get more experienced you may sometimes be able to deal with these flurries of limp-wristed arm-waving in other ways. But I don't suppose anyone would criticise you for YC-ing a punch that connected - however soft it may have been.

In management terms, after such an event I would ask the skippers to speak to their teams, reiterating that we are here for the rugby not the afters, and that the ref will deal with any foul play. This has the advantage of allowing more time for tempers to cool, and for rational thoughts to percolate through the residual red mist. Just don't forget how you are restarting while its going on!

ex-lucy
27-03-08, 17:03
Told green hooker if he had connected properly I would have RCed him for a cowards punch,
see ST's YC protocol.
the less you say in emotive situations like this the less you will get hung...

dave_clark
27-03-08, 17:03
on my ELRA i was advised to decide on intent, as well as outcome, (whether to begin with or not i don't remember). so what if the punch missed, or was feeble? if a fully connected punch would warrant a red, so should a feeble one. would it have been different if it was one of the puncher's team restraining the punchee?

having said that, i bottled a couple of yellows in my first society game so am in no position to criticise :)

Davet
28-03-08, 14:03
When I have two players involved in handbagging each other the choice is normally to simply bollock the pair of them and then get on with the game, or, if it needs the smack of firm management, then I would probably bin both swingers.

Gareth-Lee Smith
28-03-08, 16:03
I must say, I don't agree on punishment for intent. It should be objective, not subjective. If it connects, punish it. If it doesn't, admonish it.

Your thought process and decision-making for your particular scenario seems pretty good though. I would with ex-lucy - get to the point and get the player off, try not to write speeches.

didds
28-03-08, 17:03
I must say, I don't agree on punishment for intent. It should be objective, not subjective. If it connects, punish it. If it doesn't, admonish it



so if the swinger is "lucky" and the target manages to duck out of the way it doesn't matter?

Sorry all - that's just rubbish. The swinger meant to hit him, that's is ALL that is "material" IMO.

didds

OB..
28-03-08, 17:03
I must say, I don't agree on punishment for intent. It should be objective, not subjective. If it connects, punish it. If it doesn't, admonish it.

So if the "recipient" is quick enough to dodge, the attacker gets away with it?

I don't think that has ever been the standard. Paul Ringer got sent off in 1980 for his nth foul, even though John Horton managed to duck.

Dixie
28-03-08, 17:03
GLS - would your approach be the same if the punch was aimed at you, but you ducked? Surely it is the launching of the punch, rather than its outcome, that is the real offence.

David J.
28-03-08, 18:03
I agree intent certainly matters, but so does outcome. I would say, "whichever is worse".

Consider two scenarios which take place away from the ball:
Green punches Yellow as hard as he can in the face. Yellow ducks and the punch misses.

Outcome = no harm
Intent = Grave
Result = Card

Green pushes Yellow. Yellow's foot is caught under another player, he goes down, hits his head on another player's knee and is knocked out cold.

Intent = Mild
Outcome = Grave
Result = Card?

dave_clark
28-03-08, 18:03
Green pushes Yellow. Yellow's foot is caught under another player, he goes down, hits his head on another player's knee and is knocked out cold.

Intent = Mild
Outcome = Grave
Result = Card

disagree with this bit. if it's merely a handbaggy shove in the chest, the fact that he trips over someone and knocks himself out isn't enough for a card. imho of course...

peperami
28-03-08, 19:03
I agree intent certainly matters, but so does outcome. I would say, "whichever is worse".

Consider two scenarios which take place away from the ball:
Green punches Yellow as hard as he can in the face. Yellow ducks and the punch misses.

Outcome = no harm
Intent = Grave
Result = Card


Absoloutely



Green pushes Yellow. Yellow's foot is caught under another player, he goes down, hits his head on another player's knee and is knocked out cold.

Intent = Mild
Outcome = Grave
Result = Card?

Now this may supprise some of you who know me and believe that I give more cards than I have hot dinners, but I'd be sorely tempted to issue a bloody good b******** assuming he reacts appropriately, i.e. remorse.


Ben

Davet
30-03-08, 12:03
Or of course if Yellow was carrying the ball when tackled by Green, no offence, even if his leg gets broken ("Dangerous" tackle excluded).

Intent and illeglity of action are the determining factors, not outcome.

rodeneal
03-04-08, 16:04
I feel that the act went beyond a rollocking but did not warrent a RC so after reading all the posts and applying my wonderful 20 20 hindsight, I think I did the right thing. for two reasons

1) After YC - No more handbags in the game, Green buckled down played some very good rugby and won quite handsomely.

2) If I had RCed green hooker, I would have denied myself, the other 29 players and every one on the side line the pleaseure of watching hooker being tackled by his father's dog in the last few seconds of the game.;)

Davet
03-04-08, 22:04
What did you do when that happened?

tim White
04-04-08, 10:04
As a dog can only tackle with his teeth you cannot assume all such tackles are dangerous (to the dog, anyway). Unless the player was on the floor the tackle was unlikely to be high, you might PK the dog for holding on after the ball had gone. Dogs are notorious for miss-timing tackles so make sure you are sure of the intent of the dog-associated growling is the normal giveaway.;)

Dixie
04-04-08, 10:04
Issued his second YC to Rover:biggrin:

Phil E
04-04-08, 10:04
Its a dog eat dog world out there. I bet he was barking mad! :rolleyes:

SimonSmith
04-04-08, 13:04
That's a bit ruff!