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Gareth-Lee Smith
30-03-08, 14:03
Two supposed dangerous tackles in my U13s English game this morning.

Firstly, about centre pitch, the Red player runs upright into Green and is picked up by the legs. He is then dumped horizontal onto his back, but without much control. I blow up for a dangerous tackle. The Red player is visibly hurt. Instruction to player and captain and then resuming with the penalty. Was this right?

Again, centre of the pitch, but Green running at pace. Red can only get hands on the shirt, so pulls Green back a little before pulling him to the ground. Green coach (not happy with my previous decision for the dangerous tackle) claims this is dangerous, which I dismiss. From memory, I believe this kind of 'tackle' is disallowed by the Continuum, but not under the U19 Variations. I allowed play on. Was this right?

dave_clark
30-03-08, 14:03
first one is a judgement call. you say there was little control, so it sounds like a fair decision. dumping someone on their back, while controlled, sounds like a good tackle (unless they go too high, in which case i would ping).

the second one, play on. it's not dangerous to grab a shirt prior to wrapping arms. no problems with that IMHO.

Emmet Murphy
30-03-08, 14:03
Both decisions seem absolutely fine to me

Cymro
30-03-08, 14:03
I think your call seems fine in the first instance, if the second was "swinging player by shirt" then this is not allowed by WRU pathways (http://www.wru.co.uk/pathway), I assume RFU have a similar ruling. If it was just a pull back then I think I'd have to judge it as seen rather than having a hard-and-fast rule.
T

Emmet Murphy
30-03-08, 14:03
I assume RFU have a similar ruling.
As far as I'm aware, I don't think there is anything from the RFU on this for U.13s ... I (as always!) stand to be corrected though :)

Gareth-Lee Smith
30-03-08, 15:03
My belief follows along with Emmet's. Obviously I'm aware of the Pathways version of the U19 variations, and that's where my confusion crept in. But I did check the U19 RFU variations this morning before my game and saw nothing of the sort. I think it's a Continuum thing, if anybody can bear me out?

OB..
30-03-08, 17:03
Naturally the coach was fully au fait with the relevant variations, and was happy to discuss them quietly afterwards.

No?

KML1
30-03-08, 18:03
When I was doing this age grade, I was always wary of scrag tackles when tacklers stop ball carrier by pulling on the back of the shirt. The choking effect round the throat can be far worse than any other injury cause, particularly if the ball carrier is running at speed. I would imagine it would be a bit like a clothes line effect. Don't know if it's in the continuum, and if not, you'd have to make a judgement call on it.

Gareth-Lee Smith
30-03-08, 18:03
OB, would you be too surprised if I said no? I did get the magic words "I am a referee too", though.

Odd really, in that case you'd think he'd know not to mark 10m with his flag pointing in-field...

KML - I don't like them and I don't tend to get them other than at this young age, and I agree that it was a judgement call. In which case, I was absolutely right - excellent :biggrin:

PaulDG
30-03-08, 18:03
My belief follows along with Emmet's. Obviously I'm aware of the Pathways version of the U19 variations, and that's where my confusion crept in. But I did check the U19 RFU variations this morning before my game and saw nothing of the sort. I think it's a Continuum thing, if anybody can bear me out?

It's Continuum only - U12 and down.

U13 and up, it's your judgement call.

Dixie
30-03-08, 18:03
GLS, I think both calls were fine (sounds like you had a better day than the ref in my son's U.13 match - I elected not to wander up and introduce myself as a ref before pointing out that you ARE allowed to stop the watch for injury, and that if blue take it into a maul and then lose possession, but red can't smuggle it back, then it's scrum-down red ball rather than blue ball. He was very clear that red should use it or lose it - interesting position for a L.8 to adopt, I thought.

On the subject of pulling back by the shirt, RFU doesn't mirror the pathway but most refs I see at this age group will PK a grab of the collar as a high tackle.

Gareth-Lee Smith
30-03-08, 18:03
Aye, had it been the collar I'd have had no qualms. Firstly high, secondly no attempt to bind.

Dixie
30-03-08, 19:03
Aye, had it been the collar I'd have had no qualms. Firstly high, secondly no attempt to bind.Gareth, I assume your reference to the bind refers to 10.4(g): Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player. Penalty: Penalty Kick

I question whether trying to pull him back by the collar counts as charging or knocking down, adn if ti does, it seems unlikely that you could ping a tackler for failing to grasp the opponent when he has him firmly by the collar!

But you'd already got him for going high, so the outcome is correct anyway.

Gareth-Lee Smith
30-03-08, 20:03
I don't know how I make these laws up but I do...

Phil E
31-03-08, 09:03
GLS

On the subject of scrag tackles, I know its in the continuum as illegal (1 because it can be dangerous and 2 because (as a coach) it encourages bad tackling technique), but you are right that its not mentioned in the U19 variations.

Having said that I did an U16 match on Sunday and the assessor informed me that I should be penalising scrag tackles as dangerous and unsafe, even though they are not prohibited at that age group. I (politely) pointed out that they are not mentioned in the variation, but he said it didn't matter.

tim White
31-03-08, 10:03
Gents, a collar is above the line of the shoulder so by definition it is a 'High Tackle' and should be penalised,:mad: sharpish like.

Simon Thomas
31-03-08, 10:03
I had a cracking Colts match on Sunday Basingstoke v Rochford Hundred - skilled players, with knowledgeable & constructive coaches 20-19 to Basingstoke at the end.

Good rapport with me and each other throughout in a physical competitive match. Lots of smiles, laughs and chirps throughout.

First half Rochford centre pulled a great dummy on 22m and made outside break round full back, who did well to get back to him 10m out but he grabbed centre's collar from behind. I went straight under posts for Penalty try, dashed out to the player on deck, who had red mark on neck. Basingstoke full back full of remorse and apologies, explained he was going for smother tackle but centre too quick for him, players shook hands and all well.
I don't have the heart to YC him.

Phil E
31-03-08, 12:03
Gents, a collar is above the line of the shoulder so by definition it is a 'High Tackle' and should be penalised,:mad: sharpish like.

I dont think anyone would dispute the above, but there are other scrag tackles. Two I saw on sunday that I didn't consider dangerous, but the assessor obviously did. First; tackler grabbed his shirt tails, ball carrier swung round till he was facing him, resulting in his shirt being pulled up over his head, but not to the extent that he couldn't see or move his arms. Second; grabbed by the sleeve and then swung round a couple of revolutions, (looked a bit like dancing on ice for a moment). While they werent tidy, I didnt consider them dangerous either. But I am prepared to be corrected.

Dixie
31-03-08, 12:03
Grabbing an untucked shirt at waist level, and grabbing an outstretched arm (perhaps to counter a hand-off) and pulling the player round. I wouldn't penalise either of those as dangerous, except under Continuum regs. How would others deal?

cymrubach
31-03-08, 12:03
It's a lot easier here in Wales, pathways dictates that swinging anyone by the jersey right up to under 16's is dangerous and should result in a penalty, so no arguments.

Phil E
31-03-08, 12:03
It's a lot easier here in Wales, pathways dictates that swinging anyone by the jersey right up to under 16's is dangerous and should result in a penalty, so no arguments.

Trust the Welsh to have to do things different :wink:

Padster
31-03-08, 13:03
I quite like the idea of the scrag tackle not being allowed up to under 16. There are a lot of youngsters who only start rugby in year 7 (under 12) so they haven't got the same base skills levels as those who started at clubs and worked up through the continuum age groups.
The jersey pulling tackles can lead to flashpoints in my experience as the 'tackler' will often try to sling the player into someone. It also encourages lashing out by the player being grabbed as they try to get free.

beckett50
01-04-08, 11:04
I (looked a bit like dancing on ice for a moment).

Good enough reason to penalise and RC the pair of them for bringing the game into disrepute:rolleyes: :eek: :D

Dickie E
01-04-08, 11:04
The 'jersey sling' tackle is illegal here too for juniors

Davet
01-04-08, 12:04
The 'jersey sling' tackle is illegal here too for juniors

Is that a Channel Island version of a Singapore Sling?

Padster
01-04-08, 13:04
Is that a Channel Island version of a Singapore Sling?

We could never condone underage drinking :D :D :D

Simon Thomas
01-04-08, 15:04
Good enough reason to penalise and RC the pair of them for bringing the game into disrepute:rolleyes: :eek: :D

'bringing the game into disrepute' is not a dismissal offence (see below) and is not under the referee's remit to award. It is a CB or RFU charge under Regulation 5.12. Perhaps use 10.4 (e) or (k) or 10.2 - with Acton Town (applying 'Brooke-Taylor' restrictions) :nono: :wink: :D

Valid dimissal offences are :

10(1) Obstruction
10(2) Unfair play
10(3) Repeated infringement
10(4)a Punch or strike
10(4)b Stamp or trample
10(4)c Kick
10(4)d Trip
10(4)e Dangerous tackling
10(4)f Play opponent without ball
10(4)g Dangerous charging
10(4)h Tackling jumper in the air
10(4)i Dangerous play in scrum etc.
10(4)j Retaliation
10(4)k Dissent/abuse official
10(4)k Bad sportsmanship
10(4)k 2 cautions (yellow cards)
10(4)l Misconduct : ball out of play
10(4)m Late charge the kicker
10(4)n Flying Wedge/Cavalry Charge