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View Full Version : "choose a player to be binned, capt"



ex-lucy
09-04-08, 09:04
close match ... player breaks tackle and gets over gain line .. is tripped as he is about to accelerate away ..
ref blows whistle. Calls defending captain to him.
"captain, i didnt see what happened exactly but that player was tripped by one of your players. Choose a player to be sent to the bin, pls"

Phil E
09-04-08, 09:04
close match ... player breaks tackle and gets over gain line .. is tripped as he is about to accelerate away ..
ref blows whistle. Calls defending captain to him.
"captain, i didnt see what happened exactly but that player was tripped by one of your players. Choose a player to be sent to the bin, pls"

I think I would bin the ref ?

Emmet Murphy
09-04-08, 10:04
I'd say that needs reporting on the ref's feedback card after the match. What would happen if that 'nominated' player went on to receive a second YC - how would he word it on his sending off report? :confused:

Simon Thomas
09-04-08, 10:04
referee 'training and development need' identified - you can only give what you actually see.

Toby Warren
09-04-08, 11:04
What a great approach :chin: , if only we could decide who we bin when we don't see what happened.

Hands up who would start with the loudest and work down?

Dickie E
09-04-08, 11:04
I used to use a similar tactic in my disco days:

"Girls, I know one of you is going home with me tonight. Let's save a lot of trouble and decide amongst yourselves who it's going to be"

You'd be surprised how often this didn't work :bday:

Jono
09-04-08, 11:04
close match ... player breaks tackle and gets over gain line .. is tripped as he is about to accelerate away ..
ref blows whistle. Calls defending captain to him.
"captain, i didnt see what happened exactly but that player was tripped by one of your players. Choose a player to be sent to the bin, pls"

If he saw the trip then he can obviously still award a PK but to say that is cringe worthy, just out of interest who did the skipper pick??? :chin:

Gareth-Lee Smith
09-04-08, 12:04
And what was the captain's reaction?

ex-lucy, this is the second 'blunder' we've had from you over the last couple of days - anything you want to admit to? ;)

Mat 04
09-04-08, 17:04
That is nothing new to me, Ive heared of that being used many times....:)

Rawling
09-04-08, 18:04
Sounds equitable to me, but also not exactly sound practice.:rolleyes:

(hah, my (qualified) brother suggests "if it happens again and i don't get the number, you'll get the yellow card. talk to your team, please" - even better)

tim White
09-04-08, 18:04
First call is to bluff it, Skipper, let's have the player that tripped him please-not certain of the number. With a straight face it can work, if it fails all you can do is award the penalty and explain how any sympathy you might have had for him and his team just eveporated.

SimonSmith
09-04-08, 20:04
Whichj is why when I administer the serious tickings off, I bring the captain and ask him to bring the player.

I'm lucky, I haven't had to bluff THAT often. ANd if it's card worthy, I move heaven and earth to be able to identify the player.

The only cautionary note I have is that the "sympathy evaporating" piece is the road to ruin.
First - you can't treat the team any differently just because you didn't 'get' the guy.
Second, and perhaps more importantly - you can't give the impression or allow the team to get the impression that you're treating them unfairly for your own failing. And let's be honest - the trip is their fault, the failure to get the right number isn't.

Account Deleted
09-04-08, 21:04
If there had been several other offences would yo uconsider a "team Card" and give it to the captain since he has failed to sort out the discipline.

I've told a captain before now that "...another such offence and I'll be considering cards. Captain If I can't be sure who is taking the maul down you'll be in the firing line for failing to sort your team's discipline."

Not sure how "correct" it is but it helps concentrate the captain's mind.

dave_clark
09-04-08, 21:04
someone asked this on my ELRA, and the response was yes. whether this is just for new referees is another matter - i suspect so.

didds
09-04-08, 22:04
(hah, my (qualified) brother suggests "if it happens again and i don't get the number, you'll get the yellow card. talk to your team, please" - even better)

No its not - its a complete cop out.

didds

SimonSmith
09-04-08, 22:04
I can't find the threads where we've discussed this before but:
There is no way in law that the captain is culpable for what his team is doing. What offence are you doing him for?

I agree with Didds. Cop out.

didds
09-04-08, 22:04
If there had been several other offences would yo uconsider a "team Card" and give it to the captain since he has failed to sort out the discipline.

I've told a captain before now that "...another such offence and I'll be considering cards. Captain If I can't be sure who is taking the maul down you'll be in the firing line for failing to sort your team's discipline."

Not sure how "correct" it is but it helps concentrate the captain's mind.


and its crap.

You are expecting captains to help you with this sort of approach?

At worst you create a scenario whereby the captain feels that he may as well transgress anyway. At best you appear an officious twat.

If the skipper said to YOU "sort out the oppo doing A, B and C ref - or we'll sort it out for you" you would (rightfully) be appalled. So what's the difference?

didds

Deeps
10-04-08, 01:04
I will try never to issue a threat of an actual sanction as I think this could paints me into a corner that I might have difficulty getting out of.

My adopted stock phrase as taught to me by wiser and more experienced referees is to say to the skipper. 'This is the second time that this offence has been committed by the team/this man and I am beginning to run out of options available to me.' This is my 'quiet word', the next level could be a formal team warning or straight to a YC.

Dickie E
10-04-08, 01:04
maybe we should ask the victim who the culprit was - no doubt he'll know.

(TIC)

Robert Burns
10-04-08, 01:04
Send the captain to the bin for a team offence? Joking surely, lol.

I can see it now, Maul moving forward, collapses, loud blow from whistle, Capatin here please, captain being full back and miles away from play runs in "Your team keeps doing this and I can't tell who it is, who's your vice captain because I'm binning you for lack of team management".

Crowd goes crazy because you've binned someone not even involved in play, assessor gets up and goes home because he's seen enough now to grade you as completely incompetent, complaint letter (rightfully) to society about your awful game management, and a lonely beer in the clubhouse afterwards for you as no doubt even the non offending team will be appauled by what you just did.

I suggest just awarding the penalty warning the captain that you don't want to see it again and they are lucky you missed the number or they would have been a man down. They now know they were lucky but you'll be looking more next time, captain has respect for you being honest and sorts their team out, non-offending team gets the penalty they should have had anyway.

truck'n'trailor
10-04-08, 07:04
Ex-lucy - what level was the game in which you saw this tactic being used?

Account Deleted
10-04-08, 08:04
I think your right. i did it once (no assessor) captain was a forward so not easy for anyone to tell if it was him or not. He certainly pulled his team together and laid down the law. To be honest I'd pretty much lost the game any way with a lot of stuff going on on the "other side". It calmed things down a bit. But I was never sure about it being a good idea or not.
One senior guy (full of dodgy advise) said to me just pick a playER who was close and just say " you know what you were doing; 10 minutes to calm down, thank you!" Can't say I'm too fussed with this idea either.

I guess a penalty and a general word is all you can really do in law.

Simon Thomas
10-04-08, 09:04
In England under RFU and Society juristiction :

NO WAY should you

a) bin the Skipper for an non-identified culprit that you didn't see, even if it is a team card warning . It is the identified offender who walks for 10 minutes, for first offence after a formal warning
b) threaten a definite yellow card etc next time
c) ask skipper to get the culprit to own up - you lose all authority and respect if you do that
d) specifically tell one team you are losing sympathy with them - that is a subjective and emotional response, you should remain objective and equitable.

suggested actions are :

a) get both skippers to you and tell them sorry you saw an offence, but didn't see exactly who did it (be honest)
b) award the penalty for foul play
c) warn that all sanctions could be considered for repeat offences, or the you are running out of options if it is part of a repeat offence scenario
d) tell skippers to leave the refereeing to you and that you will be looking more carefully at such situations from now on

And your personal action as referee is to get your positioning sorted out so you can see any offences clearly, be consistent and use preventative management where possible.

Yes of course apply the Laws but also 'manage' the situation.

As to Dave_Clark's comment re the ELRA question I am open-mouthed. I don't know any RFU Trainer, RDDO or RDDM who give such advice (and I know quite a few of them very well).

chopper15
10-04-08, 11:04
close match ... player breaks tackle and gets over gain line .. is tripped as he is about to accelerate away ..
ref blows whistle. Calls defending captain to him.
"captain, i didnt see what happened exactly but that player was tripped by one of your players. Choose a player to be sent to the bin, pls"


Isn't the question a non-starter?

If he didn't see it, how did he know it wasn't just a stumble.

If, however, he saw two defenders stick their foots/feet out but wasn't sure which one caused the trip, or even did, what action should he have taken?

ex-lucy
10-04-08, 12:04
GLS:
ex-lucy, this is the second 'blunder' we've had from you over the last couple of days - anything you want to admit to?

cheeky whipper snapper .... the 1st I witnessed (level 8+1 ref in prestigious age group final), the second i heard 2nd hand was level 8+1 ref in County age group final. the tripper walked off to prevent embarrassment to his team mates. National age group capt and son of international.

tim White
10-04-08, 12:04
We all know you cannot possibly see everything for all of the time, just make sure you do the best you can.

dave_clark
10-04-08, 12:04
bin the one he thought did it. either that or penalise the attacking player for taking a dive :wink:

Simon Thomas
10-04-08, 12:04
Behaviour no doubt inherited from Rugby League genes then ex-Lucy !

And the honour to take the walk.

Gareth-Lee Smith
10-04-08, 12:04
Thought that was more likely, ex-lucy ;)

I'm thinking of setting up a poll to see how many of us would happy to send an innocent man for a 10 minute rest.

Come on guys, not only are you getting rid of a player who doesn't deserve it, you're leaving the culprit on the pitch. If the opposition know who did it, he's going to get a real shoeing at the next breakdown, and then you've caused all kinds of problems. ST and RB's advice are best here. It's the wrong time to escalate past ATP. And it's also a good illustration of why you should never utter the words 'Next offence I see goes to the bin'.

I think it's a management situation.

SimonSmith
10-04-08, 12:04
I would add:

It's sometimes worth getting the non offending captain and talking to him alongthe lines of : I saw the offence; didn't get the player. You have your penalty. Please help by making sure your guys don't go looking for retribution.

Lets him know exactly why you're doing what you're doing...

Gareth-Lee Smith
10-04-08, 14:04
Yep, good addition, Simon