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ex-lucy
13-04-08, 17:04
black 10 restarts with a 22m dropout.
the wind picks it up and pushes the ball back well behind the line (the ball never crossed the 22m line).
Red winger chases the ball and kicks ahead. The ball bobbles up and the red winger collects and scores.
Try awarded.

Rawling
13-04-08, 17:04
Fine on two counts, right? 13.13 (b) and (c).

Jono
13-04-08, 18:04
black 10 restarts with a 22m dropout.
the wind picks it up and pushes the ball back well behind the line (the ball never crossed the 22m line).
Red winger chases the ball and kicks ahead. The ball bobbles up and the red winger collects and scores.
Try awarded.

Correct yes

PeterTC
13-04-08, 18:04
Why does it have to cross the 22 though? Play surely restarts when the ball is kicked, and I am guessing by the fact Rawling has quoted relevant laws, that is what it says. I seem to remember it does say you can play advantage from it.

If my thoughts are right, then Rawling/Lucy's thoughts are correct and the try is OK.

ex-lucy
13-04-08, 19:04
assessor told me i was incorrect to award the try ... and a consequent 22m dropout i gave advantage from which eventually red won a ruck and ran it in for a try.
Assessor told me "it must go over the 22m line and if not then options to oppo capt: scrum or kick again. Ball is dead if it doesnt go over 22m line."

Mat 04
13-04-08, 19:04
assessor told me i was incorrect to award the try ... and a consequent 22m dropout i gave advantage from which eventually red won a ruck and ran it in for a try.
Assessor told me "it must go over the 22m line and if not then options to oppo capt: scrum or kick again. Ball is dead if it doesnt go over 22m line."

Seems your assessor was incorrect..

OB..
13-04-08, 19:04
13.13 is headed
DROP OUT MUST CROSS THE LINE

but it contains the exception about advantage as well as the choice in case of an incorrect kick.

Referee 1 Assessor 0

I always carry a law book to a debrief, though I rarely need to use it. This is one occasion when it would have been a good idea.

QE2wgc
13-04-08, 20:04
I hope it werent an Herts assessor:eek:

Was it a good game though?

AndyKidd
13-04-08, 21:04
As has been pointed out. It is very clear in the Laws. And you were right to award the try in the first instance.

13.13 DROP OUT MUST CROSS THE LINE
(a) If the ball does not cross the 22-metre line, the opposing team has
two choices:
To have another drop out, or
To have a scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line.
They throw in the ball.
(b) If the ball crosses the 22-metre line but is blown back, play
continues.
(c) If the ball does not cross the 22-metre line, advantage may apply.
An opponent who plays the ball can score a try.

Another question that comes to mind though Lucy is. Did your Assessor tell you this during the match?

Phil E
13-04-08, 21:04
Did you call advantage?

Maybe if you didn't, thats what the assessor was on about?

OB..
13-04-08, 22:04
Does failure to call advantage invalidate any advantage taken? Surely not. There is no requirement in law to call it.

"Players are encouraged to play to the whistle despite infringements by their opponents."

Nonetheless calling it is indeed best practice.

Rawling
14-04-08, 00:04
Just noticed that it didn't cross the line against the wind, so my quoted (b) is irrelevant. Ah well :(

Deeps
14-04-08, 00:04
Does failure to call advantage invalidate any advantage taken? Surely not. There is no requirement in law to call it.

"Players are encouraged to play to the whistle despite infringements by their opponents."

Nonetheless calling it is indeed best practice.

Exactly, you do not have to call advantage although it is normal to do so. If you are considering whether an infringement has in fact occurred and, if it has, whether it is relevant to play, you may not wish to call advantage because to do so means you must then take some other action, if only to call advantage over. Not calling an immediate advantage can buy you some thinking time, do I really need to call it?

I hate it when everybody just stops playing either because they think there has been an infringement or because I have called advantage and players cannot be bothered to look for one. We do need to reinforce the power of the whistle, who is calling the damn game anyway?

ex-lucy
14-04-08, 10:04
arm out, called 'advantage' as my new high level expects me so to do ;-)

assessor has emailed me to apologise that he may have been incorrect :-)

was a good game. lots of off loading in loose, good hard stuff up front by the good looking single digit chaps. 63-7 but hard work for it until last quarter.

y'day. knock on ... advantage called and kicked away immeditaley to touch on the full ... TJ said "you are going back for the scrum arnt you because you didnt call adv over"
"no, line out there pls. Opportunity taken."
shock and gasps of amazement from sizeable crowd

Cymro
14-04-08, 10:04
re advantage
I think if the kick was "under pressure" I'd have come back. if it wasn't then "opportunity taken" I can't be held responsible for players lack of skill.

beckett50
14-04-08, 10:04
In the first instance you were absolutely correct, and well done for sticking to your guns.

In the 2nd instance I would, again, concur with your judgement. However, since it all happened so quickly you have perhaps made a rod for your own back by signalling and calling advantage. In an instance such as you describe I have found it easier just to call - and signal - "Play on!". Whilst he may have been under pressure no one forced the player to kick the ball downfield. He obviously spotted that there was space behind the opposition line and decided to try and exploit it.

Simon Thomas
14-04-08, 10:04
Well done ex-Lucy.

As an assessor, I would have been looking for immediate arm out and advantage call as this was a critical incident. It isnlt your fault if the players donlt know the Laws.

As a referee, I would have had to think for a second or two and been too late with my advantage call. On balance I would have awarded the try anyway based on it looking right, but post-rationalised perhaps !

Davet
14-04-08, 14:04
We may be in danger of succumbing to a new fashion with regard to knock on advantage.

It does seem these days that refs will accept the fact the innocent side played the ball and treat that as tactical advantage if not under immediate pressure.

However, the law does say that advantage must be "real" and that a mere opportunity to gain advantage is not sufficient.

If the innocent side after a knock on kick out on the full, outside their 22, then does seem that no real advantage has occured.

By all means play short crisp advantage for a knock-on, but don't throw out the real baby with the slow bathwater.

SimonSmith
14-04-08, 15:04
Dave - does that mean that you don't consider freedom to kick under no pressure to be tactical advantage?

OB..
14-04-08, 16:04
If the kick is a quick reaction to a bouncing ball, then I doubt if I would see it as a tactical decision.

Phil E
14-04-08, 16:04
However, the law does say that advantage must be "real" and that a mere opportunity to gain advantage is not sufficient.


You are right

The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain
advantage is not enough.

However it also says

Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to
play the ball as they wish.

If they have the freedom to play the ball as they wish, but dont do so.............

In the end we should refer to

The referee is sole judge of whether or not a team has gained an
advantage. The referee has wide discretion when making decisions.

ExHookah
15-04-08, 01:04
I think scrum advantage can be a flexible thing as well, and as the idea is to look for a situation that gives an advantage to the non-offending team it needs to take everything into account.

For example, two weeks ago I refereed at a tournament where there were multiple matchups of mens club teams vs collegiate teams. So in most cases you'd see the mens team have a significant advantage in the scrums. In those cases you'd want to give the college boys as much chance as possible to gain something from a knock-on, before dragging them back in to get shunted around by the men.

Too often I think we play advantage in a set, automatic fashion, and in some ways players expect advantage all of the time. I had a full back complain when I blew up to give his side the scrum, he had just gathered a loose ball that had been knocked on by his opponents. I had to calmly explain to his that playing on would have led to him being pummeled by the two flankers who were bearing down on him, as he was isolated on his own goal line. He understood then, and actually chatted with me about advantage application in the bar afterwards.

Simon Thomas
15-04-08, 10:04
Too often I think we play advantage in a set, automatic fashion, and in some ways players expect advantage all of the time.

Exactly Hookah - each and every advantage situation is a different set of contextual criteria and cannot be handled in a set automated way. This is often a problem with less experienced referees or those who do not have an extensive playing background, or is just a lazy way out (hand up from me on occasions !)

As a referee coach, I regard there being three main focus areas with my referees (one level 6 the other level 9) we have to get right

1. Management - effective unhurried communication, repeat offences and ATP to YC, and consistency of decisions
2. Post tackle to ruck transition - they most important part of the game IMHO - and evidenced by new ELV issues - if everyone reffed it properly to start with we would need the ELVs in this area.
3. Advantage - it needs to almost be based on a 'feel' for each situation, with an instant processing of all relevent factors (temper of game, position in pitch, scrum or penalty, what has happened so far in match in similar circumstances, is advantage possible / safe, has tactiucal or territorial advantage been gained, etc)

Experience has shown that if they get these three areas right then referee grade promotion is likely to follow, but more importantly the match is likely to be more open, flow better, and see paterns of play emerge, with positive players' attitude to the referee.

Davet
15-04-08, 14:04
Dave - does that mean that you don't consider freedom to kick under no pressure to be tactical advantage?

Simon,

It may be.

At most scrums the result will be posession to the put-in side, and the ability to make a back row move, 9 break or box kick, or 10 break, pass or kick.

I think that having only a single option to kick, presented very quickly, may not result in a real advantage.

As 'tother Simon says - each case on its merits.