PDA

View Full Version : ball dead. scrum back? or 22m dropout?



ex-lucy
13-04-08, 16:04
blue kicks ahead from near 10m line, the ball ends up in the in goal area and dribbles along, rolling very slowly.
red 15 falls on the floor, intentionally ensuring his feet are out of play and then dives on the ball touching it down.
He asks for scrum back.
Ref awards 22m dropout.

Jono
13-04-08, 17:04
blue kicks ahead from near 10m line, the ball ends up in the in goal area and dribbles along, rolling very slowly.
red 15 falls on the floor, intentionally ensuring his feet are out of play and then dives on the ball touching it down.
He asks for scrum back.
Ref awards 22m dropout.

If the ball was moving then he should have the option, if the ball was still and he played it with his feet out then its a 22 drop out.

OB..
13-04-08, 18:04
The IRB Ruling applies to a player who picks up the ball, not one who grounds it.

You can ground a ball (for a try or 22) if you are in touch, and we presumed elsewhere the same would apply to a player beyond the dead-ball line.

Referee correct.

Dixie
14-04-08, 09:04
The IRB Ruling applies to a player who picks up the ball, not one who grounds it.

You can ground a ball for a try (and presumably also the 22) if you are in touch, and we presumed elsewhere the same would apply to a player beyond the dead-ball line.

Referee correct.I just took the liberty of marginally improving it for you, OB. I leave it to others to decide whether the required double presumption inherent in the ref's decision is valid.

Simon Thomas
14-04-08, 09:04
I am with OB and Dixie on this one - equitable interpretation is 22m drop out.

ex-lucy
14-04-08, 09:04
so, there is a subtle diff whether the ball is moving or not ...
(the ball was moving but the ref deemed it to be not moving enuf).
or is it a case of tocuhed down or picked up ...?

so if the 15 had tried to pick the ball up with one foot dead .. would he have been awarded scrum back (if so chosen)?

Rawling
14-04-08, 10:04
Yes, if the ball is moving and he picks it up with at least one foot dead, he gets the option of scrum.
If it's not moving and he picks it up, he made it dead so no scrum option.
Even if it's moving, if he grounds it it hasn't gone dead, so no scrum option.

beckett50
14-04-08, 10:04
If the ball is in motion and the player instantly touches it down, whilst he has one foot out of play then the option is offered.

If he waits for the ball to stop before making it dead then their is no option offered and the 22m drop-out is the result.

In the instance you describe the ball is in motion and the player has made it dead without delay, whislt out of play, and so the option should be offered.

Gareth-Lee Smith
14-04-08, 10:04
So in grassroots/low level rugby, is it that likely that a scrum back would be awarded in this situation? If a referee is ill-positioned or he has no touch judges (or both) then he is probably going to think that the ball is being played. Or, is the referee likely to believe cries of 'the ball is dead, ref'?

Rawling
14-04-08, 12:04
If the ball is in motion and the player instantly touches it down, whilst he has one foot out of play then the option is offered.


No.

From a kick in general play (including PK/FK), if a defending player touches the ball down, it is a touch down whether or not he was out of play (by law in touch in goal, I think we assume this to cover behind the dead ball line too), and thus they only get the drop out.
In order to get the scrum option, they have to pick the ball up while it is in motion.

From a kick-off, restart kick or drop out, touching the ball down is sufficient to get the scrum option.

OB..
14-04-08, 12:04
If the ball is in motion and the player instantly touches it down, whilst he has one foot out of play then the option is offered.

If he waits for the ball to stop before making it dead then their is no option offered and the 22m drop-out is the result.

The IRB Ruling specifically refers to the player picking the ball up, not touching it down.

Dixie's expansion of my comment is in fact law:
22.4 (g) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.
22.5 (b) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If defending players are in touch-in-goal, they can make a touch down by grounding the ball in their in-goal provided they are not carrying the ball.


Note also:
22.2 PICKING UP THE BALL Picking up the ball from the ground is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in the in-goal and ground it elsewhere in the in-goal.


The IRB Ruling is an addition to the laws, not a change.