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Account Deleted
29-09-05, 09:09
The following is a senario from a game that I watched in the last 12 months. I have changed minor points to diguise the game and referee concerned. The relevant facts are true.

With 2 mins to go with the score standing at Home team 20 Away team 19 the Referee awards a line-out to the away team on the home team's 22 metre line.

As the ball is thrown in the Home teams players come accross the line of touch and take out two of the away team's players (breaching Law 19.9 (b), (d) and (e) take your pick). The refere waves play on. the game soon finishes with the score unchanged. Home team are delighted to win. Away supporter moan about the "homer ref".

After the game the referee say that he did see the home players offend but that he was not going to let a side win with a "last minute penalty".

Below I have listed various types of game that this situation could have occured in. ONE OF THEM IS THE TYPE OF GAME THAT IT DID OCCUR IN! Would you have done the same as the ref did in this game in each senario or would your action varied with the type of game being played?

1; The final of the Heiniken Cup?

2; An under 15s friendly?

3; An Amateur friendly?

4; A Pro league game with no relegation or promotion issues at stake?

5; A Six-Nations or Tri-Nations game?

6; A pre-season friendly between two Pro sides?

Pablo
29-09-05, 09:09
Last minute, first minute, standard of game - what's the difference? Did he see the incident? If yes, did he think it contravened the Law? If yes, did he believe it materially affected the away team's attacking opportunity? If yes, penalty.

At no stage in that thought process should the level of the match or the game time have any influence.

My 0.02

OB..
29-09-05, 09:09
I agree with Pablo.

Account Deleted
29-09-05, 09:09
Oh yes he saw it!

Simon Thomas
29-09-05, 09:09
The level of game has no impact on the decision - which is award a penalty.

By all means play advantage, but come back for the penalty offence.

tim White
29-09-05, 12:09
First thoughts are:-
Did this barging materially affect the line out, did it take out a catcher, was it dangerous?
I suspect this was a very high level ref and he made all those judgements real-time.
This is TV rugby, which as we all know is not the same as real rugby.
Were the 'away' catchers jumping at all, or did they allow themselves to be pushed out?
I suspect the comment about winning with a last minute penalty is not wholly correct, or has been taken out of context.

Surely no referee alters the laws to suit the game but we do have to accept that materiality is affected by skill level etc and adjudge accordingly. We do not turn a blind eye but assess all breaches of the law in context of the play in progress, not according to how many people are watching the game.

Having said all that, it is so much easier to sit here and think about it before leisurely typing the answer, hardly like being a referee at all.

Ian_Cook
29-09-05, 12:09
This is an attacking lineout for the trailing team. Did they get clean possession from the line-out. If so, and advantage was played, then later expired, it's possible that there was nothing wrong with the refs decision. However, if the attacking team had their possession disrupted by the defending teams illegal tactics, then the ref has committed a serious blunder and has cost the away team a chance to win. :mad:

Account Deleted
29-09-05, 14:09
The referee declined the penalty and stated so because he would not let a team win with a last minute penalty! The barging took 2 jumpers (at 2 & 4) out of the line and the ball was aimed well a clean take was likely. The barging had a clear and material effect on the play.

Advantage was not given and blown, the ball was in fact taken by the home jumper un-opposed by the away jumper who had been taken out by one of the home prop forwards.

Yes, the Referee was a top international ref. the game fell into "catagory 6" the pre-season friendly between two pro sides. One who I had a very high regard for (before this incident) I also saw the incident from the terrace a few yards away. The referee chose to abuse his position. For me that sucks!
How do we convince supporters that referees are not biased when a top ref (who came from near to the home teams ground) act in a way that could be read as bias? I guess we should admire his honesty, he could have said "I did not see it".

I, as a junior ref, don't need to go to games and get "guilt by association" from this sort of thing.

Thanks to those who answered.

Fabio
29-09-05, 14:09
6; A pre-season friendly between two Pro sides?
Does this option have any relation with the British & Irish Lions vs. Argentina match? They didn't win, but didn't lose either... :D

Account Deleted
29-09-05, 14:09
No, it was not. Didn't even see that game on TV let alone "in the flesh".

I will not reveal the game or Ref as the wronged club does not wish to take the matter forward. It's done and dusted and it was "only" a friendly. So as not proof would ever come forward I have no intention of "mud-slinging". I was more interested in knowing if this "reffing by importance" was the norm with other referees. I try to be equally bad in all my games.

ExHookah
29-09-05, 15:09
Sounds like a penalty to me. The ref who mentors me has described ways in which to view advantage. He said in a situation where a kickable penalty offense occurs (i.e. close enough to be a realistic shot a goal), then the advantage really only ends if the wronged team scores, otherwise you should come back to the penalty.

The home team clearly made a deliberate attempt to disrupt the throw, which in my mind makes it even more essential to penalize the play.

My understanding is that you should never end the game when you are playing penalty advantage.

Is this how other refs view it?

jboulet4648
29-09-05, 19:09
If the home team did not want to chance of losing the game to a penalty, they would not have infringed.....if the ref saw it and did not call it, he was negligent and his reasoning should mean he gets dropped from important matches....

Simon Griffiths
29-09-05, 22:09
I'm not sure what's worse - this referee's blatent lack of respect for the Laws of the game, or the fact that he tried to justify his actions (with a frankly pathetic excuse).

If it's a penalty offence, it is our duty to penalise it - whatever stage of the game it is! Yes, if things are immaterial we may let them 'slide' as they have no effect on the game, but a dangerous act such as this should never go unpunished if no advantage is gained. (regardless of it's effect on the game or passage of play).

It is also of little relevance (in this particular scenario) what type/level of game it is.

Davet
30-09-05, 13:09
The facts seem to be that the home team infringed, and that there was a clear case for a penalty. There was no advantage to the away side.

Penalty 15m in from touch on the 22.

Winning a game on a penalty in the last minute is not unheard of. The pressure in the final moments can be intense as a side trailing narrowly piles it on. It is absolutley critical that the ref does not allow the defenders to escape by means of illegal tactics - and of course ensures that the attackers are all kept honest as well.

To lose a game on a penalty in dying moments (whether it be a kick at goal, or the escape from pressure of the long touch finder followed by no-side) can be heartbreaking. The way to avoid such heartbreak is not to infringe.

It is players who infringe not referees. All one can ask is that the referee calls what he sees and is sure of.

ExHookah
30-09-05, 13:09
To lose a game on a penalty in dying moments (whether it be a kick at goal, or the escape from pressure of the long touch finder followed by no-side) can be heartbreaking. The way to avoid such heartbreak is not to infringe.

It is players who infringe not referees. All one can ask is that the referee calls what he sees and is sure of.


Exactly. He is also not handing them the match, they still have to find a kicker who can slot the pressure kick to win it, not everyone has a Wilko/Jenkins/Andrew type in the team. I had a game over the summer, blue trailing red by 2 points, blue spun the ball wide and red infinged with an early tackle on the outside center. I awarded Blue a penalty roughly 15m in, and in between the 10m and 22m lines. Blue ended up missing it, but their captain had no complaints. He said they were doing their best to win the match, and I allowed them the opportunity to capitalize on a red infringement and they couldn't do it. Red captain was also happy.

Actually pleasant to end a match with both captains have no gripes at all.

didds
30-09-05, 17:09
surely the point is that as refs are the sole aribiter etc and are there to apply safety and the laws then its a PK whether its the 1st mionute or the last?

Put another way, if this approach was a general one then the message to a winning team within the final minute is that anything goes.

I suspect that the OP's original match was a TV blockbuster

didds

didds
30-09-05, 17:09
Surely no referee alters the laws to suit the game

you'd hope not but its clear from various threads here and on the RFU forum that that is clearly the case.

Sometimes its because of deference to youngsters or duffers level of the game - which is probably acceptable in the line of "education" as opposed to punishment etc.

Other times its because at the top level such silly things as slightly forward passes and crooked feeds are not seen as "important".

didds

didds
30-09-05, 18:09
I had a game over the summer, blue trailing red by 2 points, blue spun the ball wide and red infinged with an early tackle on the outside center. I awarded Blue a penalty roughly 15m in, and in between the 10m and 22m lines. Blue ended up missing it, but their captain had no complaints. He said they were doing their best to win the match, and I allowed them the opportunity to capitalize on a red infringement and they couldn't do it.

as skipper he's also had other options in his team's arsenal to try and win the game - scrum, tap or kick and lineout (depending on time left on the watch formthe last of course)

didds

Account Deleted
03-10-05, 12:10
surely the point is that as refs are the sole aribiter etc and are there to apply safety and the laws then its a PK whether its the 1st mionute or the last?

Put another way, if this approach was a general one then the message to a winning team within the final minute is that anything goes.

I suspect that the OP's original match was a TV blockbuster

didds

Not on TV but it had been quite an enjoyable game. The referee just left a sour taste in the mouth with his comments.
As I thionk I said I've considered him to be one of the best. My opinion of him has dropped a lot. It was strange because I was saying how lucky we were to have him controlling the game as he was so good. Then the guys around me say come on then ref justify that!. I just could not.

ExHookah
03-10-05, 13:10
as skipper he's also had other options in his team's arsenal to try and win the game - scrum, tap or kick and lineout (depending on time left on the watch formthe last of course)

didds

Well time had expired, and I'd advised both teams it was about to at the previous breakdown, so kicking to touch would have ended it. He took the best option in my mind, his kicker was just not able to take the points on offer.