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Mike Whittaker
10-10-05, 09:10
Yet again, Rob Andrew, with his team beaten has sort to deflect criticism onto the referee. That the Falcons made tactical errors seems to be pushed to one side.

He has patronisingly suggested that Nigel Williams has 'done his best' but refers to tremendous pressures for the referees. He then seeks to undermine further the part the ref played by calling for neutral referees.

Do we think there is a good argument for neutral referees?
Are we biased when we referee teams that we support?
Is Rob Andrew recognising that he could be out of a job because he isn't doing very well any more?
Is Jonny Wilkinson off to France to escape him? ;)

OB..
10-10-05, 11:10
Are we over-reacting to a manager who believes he is "supporting" his team?

I agree he was wrong. I note that the only yellow card went against the Welsh team (I don't agree with the commentators that it was harsh). IMHO, Nigel Whitehouse WAS neutral.

I agree Newcastle shot themselves in the foot - in fact both feet. Why did they keep trying to maul when Llanelli had proved how strong they were? Etc.

Simon Thomas
10-10-05, 11:10
I cannot see what this proposal about neutral referees is all about.

In the current Game with professional referees at the top levels, and National Panel guys who have come through close scrutiny on Group, I do not see how the concept of a neutral referee comes into it.

These refs are closely watched, assessed, advised, coached, analysed etc. Surely any bias would be identified ? Even at level 5 the match analysis figures (not a deliberate wind up Mike !) might show that.

As a lowly level 7 referee, I would take it as a personal insult if it was suggested I favoured the land of my fathers (oops I mean birth), my home county, towns' clubs, etc - I can't imagine how Nigel Williams might feel as a professional referee.

Davet
10-10-05, 13:10
The history of the game seems to tell us that the home side was responsible for finding a ref - indeed even now they still have that responsibility in the even that one is not appointed. I have never yet seen a biased ref in a game of rugby in this country. Poor refs, yes - but not biased.

Rob Andrew's comment seems to be about the pressure on refs, and he thinks that refs feel the pressure of satisfying fans from their own area/country/town, resulting in unconcious bias. I don't actually think they do.

However we do have neutrals for internationals, so I don't actually have a problem with "neutrals" for inter country club games.

What would be good would be for Rob Andrew and his colleagues to put some more money into developing refereeing.

Account Deleted
10-10-05, 15:10
I think the problem is that when you have a (relitively) Local ref any 50:50 that goes to the home side is naturally viewd with a jaundiced eye.

We have many stories in Wales of referees calling "Scrum to us" and the like. Most are exagerations but why not remove any doubt by having neutral referes? It takes the pressure of them a bit. Now they can be just "crap" rathere than "biased sods".

for my few penneth worth I felt that Nigel Whitehouse was a bit generous to the home side towards the end with several Llanelli players geting away with offences whixh the Newcastle boys did not I would point out that I say this having seen no replays and these a purely "gut" feelings and I happy to wadmit to being very wrong.

One of the issues we have is that there is a different style between the Welsh and English refs. and this contributes to the problems that English sides face in Wales and Welsh sides face in England. We get the same with the Celtic league with the Scottish refs in particular seeming a bit more "whistle happy" than either the Welsh or Irish.

Whilst I feel that there is no real evidence of and major issue here it would be one less preasure on the man in the middle if he was a neutral.

ex-lucy
10-10-05, 16:10
it's about perceptions.
It should be perceived that the ref is neutral.
You and I know, that you just dont get the time when making a decision at tackles/ rucks (oer 50% of decisions to be made?) to see whose hand it was or not ... to even think about becoming biased.
But for all the fans and coaches and sponsors i think it is a good idea ...
A chance to develop Italian, Canadian, USA and French refs.

Of course then Saint Rob will turn round and say that the best teams/ compt should have the best refs .... no matter their nationality ...

ExHookah
10-10-05, 17:10
.
A chance to develop Italian, Canadian, USA and French refs.



Excellent idea. I nominate Chris Picard, Judah, Bryan (from Canada) and myself to cover the next round of matches!

Robert Burns
10-10-05, 20:10
Does a player that plays against the club he supported as a child (and maybe still as an adult) play different in that game? I doubt it, so why should a ref?

jboulet4648
10-10-05, 21:10
Does a player that plays against the club he supported as a child (and maybe still as an adult) play different in that game? I doubt it, so why should a ref?

No, a player may not play differently, but the player is playing for pride and victory, even if its against his old teammates....

Personally, I think it is difficult to ref a team you support. I feel you don't ref the same as if they are two teams whom you have no vested interest in.....

Two things may happen I think, when you ref a team you have a stake in. As much as you try to be unbiased, we are human, so:
1.) YOu tend to be slightly more lenient to the side you support, or slightly more strict to the opposition, or
2.) You overcompensate and tend to hold your team to a slughtly more rigorous standard.

Simon Griffiths
10-10-05, 21:10
Personally, I thought the game in question was handled very well - as have all the Anglo-Welsh games I've seen, there has certainly been no hint of 'biasness'.

What we have to remember is that this is Rob 'Squeaky' Andrew making excuses again, the same as every time his side lose, and even Newcastle's own fans are getting fed up with him - he should just accept that he ain't up to the job and resign (before he, inevitably, gets pushed).

As far as the question, as a stand alone goes, I can't see how we can have neutral refs. In the Celtic League/Internationals/Heineken Cup/Super 12 (14) etc. there is always at least one 'nation' not involved - i.e. NZ team plays an Aus team - S African ref/Welsh v Scottish teams - Irish ref. Why would a country, not involved or making anything from the tournament want to forfeit their referees for it? For the final, maybe - a bit of international prestige!

Also, I don't think we need them - as I said earlier, I have not seen any bias on display in any of the matches. When I'm refereeing, all I see is two sides in coloured shirts*, I see blue v green, not Old Whatsits v Dohmanger, I find I don't have time to think of them as teams - there are more important things to concentrate on.

*There is one exception to this in my case - the odd occassion I referee my school's sides. This is more because I'm still there playing for them week-in-week-out, and I know the players I'm refereeing. I have no problems refereeing the Old Boys club, nor my local side Longlevens. I also feel that I could (if I was good enough) ref Gloucester with no worries, because, although I know their names, I don't know the players.

Just my thoughts.

Simon Griffiths
10-10-05, 21:10
Oh, and as for the idea of Canadian, USA etc. referees taking the game, much as I'd like to see it happen, they wouldn't be up to it.

Although I do like the idea - perhaps a few weekends refereeing County Championship or Nat 1/2 rugby is in order?

GazMaz
10-10-05, 22:10
OK so my Dad used to support… because his Dad was a .....
I support Kilmarnock (yes I know it's a football team!) because when I was young my cousin and I made a pact.
The point here is (if you hadn't already guessed), an example bad I know, French Canadian Ref unbiased if he ref's France Vs England?
Of course he will be as unbiased as he can be, if the assessors don't think he's up to the Job he'll soon find out.

Will Nigel williams have been assessed in this game,?, probably, will he get told where his decisions were wrong and asked why he thought he made those decisions and can he improve next time round, PROBABLY.

Mr Andrew do the same yourself. And let others do their jobs, or hey have a go at reffing yourself,,,,,,,, perhaps not!

Crikey glad I got that off my chest I feel like some chocolate now, I'll make it Belgium Chocolate mustn't be bias :D

Mike Whittaker
11-10-05, 08:10
There is of course a difference (at present ) between refereeing a national side and a senior professional club (business) team. Club (business) teams are a collection of professionals working together to achieve a good business result for the team owner and shareholders. Whilst one applauds loyalty to a business entity it does not compare with loyalty and support for a national side among the players. Just look at the faces of the players prior to a match!

The international referees are, likewise, professionals doing a job and whilst there may be a case for neutral referees in international matches (although rugby league seems to manage OK) it cannot be justified in club games based on the nationality of the referee.

Waynepipmad
11-10-05, 11:10
So what do you think Rob Andrew would say if he knew that Nigel Whitehouse played for Llanelli in the past??!! :eek:

My tupence worth, I thought the penalty he gave for Llanelli to win the game could have gone either way, but Rob Andrew is being petty and pathetic, and if Whitehouse had given a Newcastle penalty at that point, would we have heard a peep out of Andrew??

Don't blame the Refs mate, do your job and coach a side properly

GazMaz
11-10-05, 11:10
Waynepipmad I'm glad he played the game, and hey I don't see any teams called UNBIAS RFC ;) .

Looks like your not making any fans here Rob...

And I used to be one!

Waynepipmad
11-10-05, 11:10
He wasn't a bad player apparently, played for Swansea and South Wales Police mostly, but did have half a season for the Turks (Llanelli)

Bryan
11-10-05, 13:10
Oh, and as for the idea of Canadian, USA etc. referees taking the game, much as I'd like to see it happen, they wouldn't be up to it.
Currently sitting in Heathrow right now about to head up to Aberdeen for 6 months (finally!). I shall soon see how thick-skinned I am in dealing with Scottish National 1/2 matches and perhaps higher (Gulp!).

There are great referees in Europe to cover these matches. Asking a Cdn. or USA referee to do it would be like us asking a UK hockey referee to referee an Ice Hockey match b/c an American team is playing a Canadian team and so we need refs from overseas- absolute hogwash!

-Bryan

Deeps
11-10-05, 13:10
Bryan,

A very warm welcome to UK to you sir. I hope you enjoy yourself immensely, though just now watch out for the midges. A drop of 'Deep Woods Off' would not go amiss to those wearing shorts!

ExHookah
11-10-05, 13:10
Bryan,

Enjoy Scotland. I knew you were heading over to Scotland, but didn't realize you were going for such an extended period of time. Are McGill giving you a leave of absence.

In order to fit in with the Scots you should try this neat trick. When you meet a Scotsman in a bar, and find he is accompanied by his fiance, tell him you wish to claim the right of Prima Nocte. They absolutely love it when people do that.

Bryan
11-10-05, 19:10
McGill have sent me off into the world when they gave me a degree back in March. Hence why Halliburton claimed me and shipped me out here.

I've also been told that Scotsmen love it when you tell them what a great fictional story Braveheart was. Prima Nocte, what idiots would ever let that happen? You'd have to be retarded to put up with that!

-Bryan

OB..
11-10-05, 19:10
Aha! an open goal!!
Ius primae noctis

Simon Griffiths
11-10-05, 19:10
I've also been told that Scotsmen love it when you tell them what a great fictional story Braveheart was.

Also, ask them when the sequel is being released! :D

ExHookah
11-10-05, 20:10
Prima Nocte, what idiots would ever let that happen? You'd have to be retarded to put up with that!

That's also a great approach to take! They love being called retarded!

Simon Griffiths
11-10-05, 20:10
Of course, you could just inform them that they're Scottish...

... :D ;) :eek:

ExHookah
11-10-05, 20:10
Of course, you could just inform them that they're Scottish...

... :D ;) :eek:

Simon, you are aware that this forum is administered by Mr Robbie Burns? Do you want to have your membership erased instantly?

Simon Griffiths
11-10-05, 20:10
I'll rephrase:

You could mention Scotland's recent results...

awaiting thehookah's prophesy to come true...

(Mind you, I'm leaving myself open to a similar repost, but with reference to England's!).

Robert Burns
11-10-05, 23:10
Warned, needs to leave user title alone for seven days or I make it worse and remove his admin rights *evil laugh*

Bryan,

I'm going to come up and take you for a weekend in Glasgow, then you'll see how retarded the scots are (That'll teach ya, ya wee......*beep*).

:rolleyes:

SimonSmith
12-10-05, 12:10
If you do go to Glasgow, I want a picture of you, Bryan, and Lobie Dosser altogether...

Please!

Mat 04
12-10-05, 17:10
Actaully, Prima Nocta did exist, just not in the same period as William Wallace (cinematic license lol).

OB..
12-10-05, 18:10
I have no idea where that phrase came from, but it was not from Latin. The word for night is nox (genitive noctis).

"Lovers of French literature may remember the immediate source for Mozart's opera, Pierre-Augustin de Beaumarchais's anti-feudalist comedy, Le mariage de Figaro (1785), in which Beaumarchais' alter ego, Figaro, attacks the ius primae noctis in words that Braveheart could have spoken to his English oppressors and that audiences in revolutionary France as well as their contemporary counterparts would enthusiastically support" http://www.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin31/p31t4.htm

Robert Burns
12-10-05, 18:10
I beleive it is a mixture of Latin and Course Auld English

OB..
12-10-05, 19:10
I believe it was just mis-remembered.

Robert Burns
12-10-05, 21:10
lol, could be