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RussRef
08-07-08, 00:07
Heated discussion in the refs' tent at my last 7s tournament this summer: Can a tackle occur without any tacklers? I don't have my laws book with me, but I recall that a player is tackled if he's held and brought to ground. Does that require the opposing player doing the holding also to go to ground? According to a fairly recent iRB directive, an opposing player in that position is not a tackler, and therefore must come through the gate before playing the ball, but is the player on the ground "tackled"? Imagine, for example, the ball carrier held, then dumped on the ground in a non-dangerous fashion. Has a tackle occurred if the opposing player is just standing over the tackled players, with his hands on the downed player?

ddjamo
08-07-08, 01:07
law 15: A tackle occurs when a ball-carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to the ground.

A ball-carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.

Opposition ploayers who hold the ball-carrier and bring that player to ground and also go to ground are known as tacklers.

Opposition players who hold the ball-carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

OB..
08-07-08, 02:07
RussRef - you may like to note the Laws link at the top. The law book is online here.

Dixie
08-07-08, 09:07
So let's assume that a ballcarrier is brought to ground by a player who remains on his feet - perhaps an almost-spear, where the defender who lifts the ballcarrier deposits him gently and safely on the ground.

The ballcarrier is definitely tackled - and he becomes the tackled player, and is required to do all those things required of the tackled player - release, roll away etc.

However, there is no player who meets the criteria of the tackler, as the defender never himself went to ground. Consequently, the pseudo-tackler doesn't have to roll away, get to his feet etc - but is also unable to benefit from the one upside of being a tackler - that of not needing to enter the tackle zone through the gate.

ddjamo
08-07-08, 15:07
dixie...politely I question your example above where you consider the ball carrier tackled (kinda like a baseball umpire from the UK questioning an Amercian umpire...so I tread very lightly with you guys out of respect and am in no way ever thinking I know more than you.). guess it comes down to the definition of "held"? can the ball carrier be "held" by a player on his feet or is he considered "held" only if on the ground by definition? personally I would say in your example that he has been brought to ground...but a defined tackle has not occured. please correct me if I am wrong...have called it that way many times. example...ballcarrier is flung to the ground by the jersey, goes to both knees and a hand...holds onto the ball and though the player that brought him down still has ahold of his jersey (and on his feet), bc gets to his feet and continues on...

chopper15
08-07-08, 15:07
. . . Consequently, the pseudo-tackler doesn't have to roll away, get to his feet etc - but is also unable to benefit from the one upside of being a tackler - that of not needing to enter the tackle zone through the gate.

So if 'pseud' had his back to his goal-line there'd be no way he could stop the reach-out try?

David J.
08-07-08, 16:07
Why would his response be different than the last time you brought this up?

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=39759&postcount=64
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5079

RussRef
08-07-08, 17:07
Sounds to me like we have a split of opinion. Ddjamo believes that a player cannot be tackled -- brought to ground and held -- unless by an opposing player who also goes to ground -- and therefore qualifies as a tackler. Dixie, on the other hand, finds nothing in the law requiring the "holding" opposing player also to go to ground -- so there can be a tackle with no tacklers. This is really not that farfetched a scenario; I wonder how others have/would call this?

SimonSmith
08-07-08, 18:07
There is an IRB decision on this from, I think, 2004:

Ruling
The Annual Meeting of Council in 2004 agreed to approve changes to Law 15-Tackle. This related to the
Definition which now reads:
“ A tackle occurs when the ball-carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground. A ball-carrier
who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place. Opposition players who hold the ballcarrier
and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers. Opposition players
who hold the ball-carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.”
The players who are not tacklers are covered by Law 15.7(c) specifically, and those players can only play the ball
if they approach from behind the ball and from the directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to
those players’ goal-line."

That help?

chopper15
08-07-08, 23:07
Why would his response be different than the last time you brought this up?

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=39759&postcount=64
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5079



These references involved 'the tackled' and 'the tackler', David.

This thread has introduced a situation with only 'the tackled'.

The 'pseud' tackler can only play the ball if they approach from behind the ball and, I quote from Dixie, is unable to benefit from the one upside of being a tackler - that of not needing to enter the tackle zone through the gate.

Hence my query (which places the tackled player between him and his goal-line); would there be any way he could stop the reach-out try?

Davet
09-07-08, 00:07
A player who remains on his feet can bring a ball carrier to ground, and can hold him. The ball carrier is tackled, but there is no-one who is categorised as a tackler.

The tackled player must release the ball and get up or move away. The "other player" - who by definition is on his feet (otherwise he WOULD be a tackler) must go through the "gate" before attempting to play the ball.

He may of course already be behind the "gate".

Chopper, if it's a tackle, it's in the field of play. If it's a tackle then the first obligation is on the tackler to release the tackled player, and either get to his feet or move away. If he is a tackler then he must get to his feet before playing the ball. If he isn't a tackler (ie did not go to ground) then he must go through the gate before playing the ball. If it's a tackle then the tackled player may immediately reach out and ground the ball.

IF the player making the tackle conforms to Law, he may compete with the tackled player for the ball, and if he does so the he has the rights to it.

It all happens a bit quick, so you may get grey decisions.

David J.
09-07-08, 01:07
The exact circumstances are slightly different, but the thread I linked to covers the boundaries of this discussion thouroughly.

RussRef
09-07-08, 22:07
Chopper, I think you're clearly right about the reach-out try: by the time the non-tackler has circled the tackle area, as required, to come through the gate, the tackled player will have grounded the ball on the second effort.

Coincidentally, I was reviewing the 2007 Level II NZRFU Referees' Exam last night and came across this question: "Can a tackle occur without any tacklers?" According to them, the correct answer is "yes." The answer key doesn't explain, but this does seem to answer my question as well: can a player carrying the ball be held and brought to ground (tackled) without any opposing players going to ground as well (qualifying as tacklers)?

Dixie
09-07-08, 23:07
Hence my query (which places the tackled player between him and his goal-line); would there be any way he could stop the reach-out try?Not unless he's VERY fast indeed! For all practical purposes, we can safely say that the attempt is likely to yield a PT.

Dixie
09-07-08, 23:07
dixie...politely I question your example above where you consider the ball carrier tackled (kinda like a baseball umpire from the UK questioning an Amercian umpire...so I tread very lightly with you guys out of respect and am in no way ever thinking I know more than you.). Go for it, ddjamo. On this forum, there are only seekers after enlightenment. For some of us, the initial darkness is more intense than for others; but ultimately, I suspect we all find it a bit lighter after a while.

chopper15
10-07-08, 00:07
Not unless he's VERY fast indeed! For all practical purposes, we can safely say that the attempt is likely to yield a PT.

To stop him reaching out would he, as a pseud tackler, be permitted to drag or turn him away before releasing him?

Dixie
10-07-08, 09:07
To stop him reaching out would he, as a pseud tackler, be permitted to drag or turn him away before releasing him?
VERY good question, Chopper! If he were the tackler, he'd have to release and roll away. As he's not a tackler, I'd guess he could legally drag the tackled player away from the danger zone. I'd also guess most refs would blow for failing to release.

Those with a flair for establishing the appropriate ethical action where the laws are unclear may well have an opinion, but in my view the law is not unclear - though I personally doubt the lawmakers intended to allow a man on the ground to continue to be manhandled. We have, however, heard in the past that a player can be dragged into touch along the ground - same thing really.

chopper15
10-07-08, 18:07
. . . . As he's not a tackler, I'd guess he could legally drag the tackled player away from the danger zone. I'd also guess most refs would blow for failing to release. . . .

. . . the man or the ball?

OK, Dixie, you've hooked me! What's the verdict?

'We have, however, heard in the past that a player can be dragged into touch along the ground - same thing really'.

SimonSmith
10-07-08, 18:07
A tackle has been effected.
That places obligations on the tackled player.
The player effecting the tackle is NOT a tackler; he can't gain the benefit of being a tackler (not having to go through the gate). Equally, in equity, he can't be asked to conform to the obligations placed on the tackler under tackle law.

I'd like to think I'd handle it as I would any other player playing a man on the ground.