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Simon Griffiths
30-10-05, 19:10
Here's one for you guys.

Time had elapsed, it was the last play of the game and a PK was awarded. The referee, when asked, told the players that they could not take the scrum option.

:confused:

I was always under the impression that all of the options we're still open - even if time had elapsed. Kick at goal and tap kicks - obvious. Kick for touch, but when the ball enters touch that's full time. I had also never heard of blowing for full-time because someone opted for a scrum.

As far as I'm aware (and until otherwise informed, am concerned), the scrum can be taken as it is the penalty.

Have I missed something here?

Mike Whittaker
30-10-05, 20:10
Thanks for this... It is what I thought the ref said, but nobody picked up on it and indicated that they still did have the option. And in interview they did not talk to the player who spoke to the ref.

Maybe we didn't catch it all and ref was pointing out that there could only be one scrum and no resets etc..... Maybe.... :rolleyes:

Ricampbell
30-10-05, 20:10
If this is the game I think you are talking about the Ref didn't say you couldn't have a scrum he just said that was time! Not sure if the players new what he meant but that was what he said (I was wired in). If it is not the game you are talking about then the referee has no right to say this as you can opt for a scrum from a penalty even if time is up.

Ross

didds
30-10-05, 20:10
... and if the scrum IS the penalty o[prion and it needs resetting it gets reset - the "completed" scrum IS the penalty and until it is finished the penalty is not exhausted - in the same way that if a kick was teed up and then fell off the tee it can be replaced.

didds

Simon Griffiths
30-10-05, 21:10
I believe we are talking about the same match Ricampbell, but I am sure (as was others watching with me) that he said "No time for the scrum" as he shook his head to the player - there's certainly no other explanation for the resultant decision from the captain.

Actual event aside, let's talk hypothetically now. Although there is already a very strong contender to the answer - scrum CAN be taken.

OB..
31-10-05, 00:10
I'm sure I remember this happening fairly recently in a game on TV that Chris White was refereeing. The scrum was reset a couple of times. Anybody have a working memory?

ExHookah
31-10-05, 22:10
Lads,

I know that we're now on this now approach on the forum of speaking hypothetically so as not to point fingers, but this thread is one step away from "a bloke down the pub told me, so it must be true!".

Any chance someone could mention which match we're talking about, so that those of us who have most of last weekends Heineken Cup matches stored on their TiVo can then go and watch it and form our own opinions?

Simon Griffiths
31-10-05, 23:10
It was right at the end of the Wasps v Toulouse match.

Now, if someone (by the the sounds of it, yourself) are going to watch it again, could you please listen very carefully to everything the ref says after awarding the PK - just to clarify what was actually said. Not that it matters, as said, now a purely hypothetical situation anyway.

ExHookah
31-10-05, 23:10
It was right at the end of the Wasps v Toulouse match.

Now, if someone (by the the sounds of it, yourself) are going to watch it again, could you please listen very carefully to everything the ref says after awarding the PK - just to clarify what was actually said. Not that it matters, as said, now a purely hypothetical situation anyway.


I actually have the last 20 minutes of that match still to watch, so I'll watch that tonight and see if I can hear what Monsieur Rolland is saying.

ExHookah
01-11-05, 12:11
OK, I played it back and forth about 6 times. I'm pretty certain he said "You can take the scrum". Now with an Irish accent sometimes there's a similar sound to Can and Can't, but I'm pretty sure it was the affirmative, and his body language and everything else leads me to believe he was willing to give them the scrum option.

ex-lucy
01-11-05, 13:11
anyone see the NPC semis ? i am sure in one of them .... with 20 secs or so to go, the ref awarded a scrum ... the winning team took a while to get their act together and to bind up etc and in that time ... the ref blew full time.
If I remember correctly the winning team were far enough ahead for any resulting play not to matter as far as the result was concerned but even so ... i was a little surprised.
common sense i guess ....

robertti
01-11-05, 14:11
I remember numerous times in internationals where a scrum has been allowed instead of a penalty after time has elapsed.
Some examples:

1. Australia vs South Africa in Brisbane 2002
George Gregan opted for a scrum well after full time, instead of a shot for goal to try get four tries and hence a bonus point. Chris Latham wriggled over in the corner for a try following that scrum.

2. Australia vs England at Twickenam 2002
Well after time had elapsed in the first half, Paul Honiss awarded a penalty to Australia for a scrum infringement, George Gregan again opted to have the scrum again. From the resulting scrum, Elton Flately scored a try to take the half time score to Eng 16-13 Aus (England ended up winning 32-31 I think).

It is the general consensus and I would be very surprised if proved otherwise that a scrum can be allowed as an option for a penalty after time has elapsed.

didds
01-11-05, 17:11
It is the general consensus and I would be very surprised if proved otherwise that a scrum can be allowed as an option for a penalty after time has elapsed.

are u saying a scrum CAN be taken as a penlty or not.. i can;t work it out! :-)

didds

Mike Whittaker
01-11-05, 17:11
Yes, you can allow a scrum to be taken instead of a penalty kick after full time has elapsed.

The whole thread was because we thought one ref said you couldn't..... we probably didn't hear him correctly.

didds
01-11-05, 18:11
Good! :-)

didds

Mike Whittaker
01-11-05, 19:11
..and OB will tell us what happens if there is a crooked feed. The decision of the ref and the options open... or for that matter illegal binding?

Of course anyone else is welcome to have a wild guess...... :D

Simon Griffiths
02-11-05, 00:11
I'm glad to find out that I probably heard wrong given thehookah's multiple viewings. At least this has (sort of) clarified the situation. A situation I was confident about anyway - hence my shock when I thought I'd heard one of the top refs in the world say that they couldn't take the scrum.

New question now though - what was the stand-in captain thinking!? I don't support Wasps (I don't even like them), but a draw was as good as a loss given their postion in the group...
...
:D

Jacko
02-11-05, 00:11
They are free kick and penalty offences, so the referee plays advantage if appropriate, and calls them back if necessary. I'm sure you'll agree a match can't end with the award of a free kick/penalty.

Simon Griffiths
02-11-05, 00:11
Which raises an interesting point - due to the rarity of FKs it's worth re-iterating Jacko's point that it's not just PKs, but you can't blow FT from an FK either.

(Can I get a few more acronyms in? :p)

So any offences at the scrum (all FK or PK) wouldn't signal the end of the match, as the only reason for a scrum is if the original fails miserably (notice wheeled scrum is not in the successful end list, even if it does result in a change of decision i.e. turnover).

Mike Whittaker
02-11-05, 09:11
... and if the scrum falls apart and has to be reset before the ball has been thrown in such that the scrum itself has never taken place?

..and if the scrum falls apart just after the ball has been thrown in?

.. and at what point is the scrum which has been awarded deemed to have taken place?

NOTE - these are meant to by hypothetical. No sympathy for any ref who gets himself into this position!!! :D

Simon Griffiths
02-11-05, 09:11
Here's a nice little FT or not FT quiz from Planet-Rugby (http://www.planet-rugby.com/Off_The_Field/Laws_And_Referees/You_be_the_Ref/story_38794.shtml) a while ago.

As I read the Law, the only time a scrum 'ends' (has completely taken place) is when:
The ball comes out.
Scrum goes into in-goal.
Hindmost player unbinds.

Therefore, the first two situations a re-set could (and should) take place.

ExHookah
02-11-05, 14:11
Mike poses some interesting questions, although I'm sure in 90% of situations the players wouldn't know what was an appropriate way to end the match.

It's just the minority of guys who get their matches on TV so that the entire world can break it down in detail!

Davet
02-11-05, 15:11
When the scrum collapses, or players come up - without penalty - then the refree orders a further scrum.

Note "further".

So unless a FK or PK is awarded, then the scrum reset is a "further" scrum.

If its a "further" scrum then its not the same scrum.

Therefore its full time.

Isn't it?

Jacko
02-11-05, 18:11
When the scrum collapses, or players come up - without penalty - then the refree orders a further scrum.

Note "further".

So unless a FK or PK is awarded, then the scrum reset is a "further" scrum.

If its a "further" scrum then its not the same scrum.

Therefore its full time.

Isn't it?

I disagree. The referee is resetting the scrum. The use of re- would suggest it is the same scrum. And if a collapse led to the end of the match, it would just encourage props on the leading side to bring it down on the far side to the ref, as they will probably get away with it. And that's not good!

Simon Griffiths
02-11-05, 19:11
I'm with Jacko, a collapse is not on the official, Law book list of what constitutes an end to a scrum. If it hasn't ended, logic would dictate that it is still the same one. So a 'new' one hasn't been formed (otherwise we'd have two simultaneously).

The emphasis of the 're-' is also a good point.

ex-lucy
02-11-05, 20:11
this is the match i was talking about ... the CC Final ... From PR...

"The Currie Cup final is reaching its close. The Cheetahs are pushing the Blue Bulls further and further back but they win a turn-over on their own 22. Fourie du Preez of the Blue Bulls passes to JP Nel who passes to Bryan Habana. The pass is forward. The referee awards a scrum to the Cheetahs. He stands there with his arm out.

After some time the siren/hooter goes to tell the anxious world that the match is over. The referee blows the final whistle.

OK?

In theory it is not OK.

Law 5.7 (e) If time expires and the ball is not dead or an awarded scrum, line-out, mark, free kick or penalty kick has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time when the ball becomes dead. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

So the Cheetahs could have put the ball into the scrum, won it and hoofed it out for the final whistle. But if they had lost the scrum..............

Mike Whittaker
02-11-05, 20:11
I noticed that but thought I had misheard as usual...

But otherwise a very well managed game from one of the calmest and clearest refs around!!!

Davet
04-11-05, 15:11
I disagree. The referee is resetting the scrum. The use of re- would suggest it is the same scrum. And if a collapse led to the end of the match, it would just encourage props on the leading side to bring it down on the far side to the ref, as they will probably get away with it. And that's not good!
Law 20.4

(e) When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. Theball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

(f) When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

(g) If a scrum collapses or lifts up into the air without penalty a further scrum will be ordered and the team who originally threw in the ball will throw the ball in again.

No mention in law of "re-set". It says simply "a further scrum".

So is a "further scrum" the same scrum or a new one?

If it's a new one then the ball is dead and it's full time.

Compare with 20.11.a which is pretty clear:

(a) If a scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees, so that the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touch-line, the referee must stop play and order another scrum.

So if wheeled there is presumably no doubt, it's a new scrum. I would suggest the same logic applies to the other cases.

And no, I don't really like it any more than you - but having thought for years that a reset scrum was the same scrum I was challenged on this, checked the lawbook and can't really see a way round it.

Other than that at the time it's my call.:D

PS I've tried to edit this so it not all bold and big - but regardless of what I do it comes back the same way. So sodit - it'll have to do. Life's too short to keep fighting computers. (Sorted - Admin)

OB..
04-11-05, 15:11
The word "reset" (or "re-set") does not occur in the laws. What we call a reset is what the laws call a "further scrum" or "another scrum". I take the view that it is merely their way of saying "start this particular scrum award over again" rather than "award a totally new scrum".

I think we are entitled to interpret the words in that sense, because that is the way the game has been refereed for a long time. After all, they do not actually say "new scrum" or "different scrum".

Although 20.10 cannot be held to list ALL the ways in which a scrum can end, I note that it does not include resets, and that resets do not actually mean making a new award. Even a turnover is simply changing the starting parameters, not ordering a totally different scrum - the reason for having a scrum and its position have not changed.

Mike Whittaker
04-11-05, 19:11
Not going so far as to say I disagree OB, but I have a little difficulty in agreeing, if you see what I mean.
The sections in 20.4 which Dave reminds us of are quite clearly, 'new scrums' in my mind.
Where the front rows get there heads all mixed up and the ref blows up to 'reset' them safely is surely a different type of event; like I can't even find it in law, other than stoppage for safety. Even with collapse and popping the law book doesn't say how to continue... Presumably do it again i.e. reset?
So in my mind resets and new scrums are a different thing, I'm just not quite clear always as to where the dividing line is, particularly if it is the last play of the match!! :)

OB..
05-11-05, 00:11
I understand the problem and we can flounder around in semantics all we like. We need a pragmatic solution. I have given mine, based on what I believe I see happening at top levels, and also what makes sense to me. There has only been one scrum offence leading to the award of a scrum.

Do we really want to go down the route where the other team know that an "accidental" slip leading to a reset would end the game? I would argue that the team awarded a scrum is entitled in equity to have the opportunity to play the ball (unless they lose it legally in the scrum, or commit an offence themselves).

Maybe we should be asking for a ruling?

Mike Whittaker
05-11-05, 10:11
Three days ago on message #20 I made it clear that I was posing hypothetical questions as I felt little sympathy for a ref who gets himself into this position. :rolleyes:

As a game ending situation I expect a ref to manage it with confidence. Nobody is going to argue, or if they do nobody will listen.

There is one situation where it may in due course need resolution. The official forms for assessing a ref at levels 2 - 5 records the number of resets and the total number of scrums including resets. Suggest we need not worry too much about that here... :)

Simon Griffiths
05-11-05, 11:11
I'm completely with OB on this one. Re-setting just feels the thing to do. And perhaps most importantly from OB's post, we don't want teams in a close match to be thinking about the 'accidental' slip just to end the match as there are serious safety issues.

As for your last point, due to the ambiguity of the wording in the Law book then a ruling is a reasonable idea - after all, it could easily affect match results.

Davet
07-11-05, 14:11
As I said, my view has always been that the reset scrum is the same scrum - and i always made a point of using that terminology throughout the game - eg - "Ok, gents, get up gain - easy does it - no problem - let's do that again; same scrum - still black putin" Partly to avoid any confusion as to the put in - and partly precisley so that at the end of the game the phrase "same scrum" was embedded, and avoid any issue ever being raised that I should blow no-side.

Then that interpretation was challenged by a coach, I explained it to him gently and he was happy in the end. Then I check the law book when I got home, and now I'm not so sure.

If the consensus is that it IS the "same scrum" then no one will be happier than me.

Simon Thomas
07-11-05, 15:11
Mike - Level 2-5 Assessment Form comment duly noted !

didds
07-11-05, 22:11
seems reasonable enough to me dave (notwithstanding your newish concerns of course).

the one query i'd have with what you do (did?) is the "same scrum, still black put-in" etc... if its a "through 90 degrees" and turnover is THAT still the "same scrum" ... but oif so of course it is no loinger black put-in etc..

didds

Davet
08-11-05, 14:11
Dids - no - I was always of the view that after a wheel it was a new scrum. Based on 20.11.b which says "This new scrum..." Which is sort of hard to dispute.

Its the logic behind that, together with the implication in the phrase "further scrum".

If one is degfinitly a "New scrum" should they all not be new scrums?

However - even though I fear this is all getting a tad anally retentive, I do still think it worth chasing down - an iRB ruling would be excellent, or failing that an RFU one.

Simon -??? What are our chances?

Mike Whittaker
08-11-05, 17:11
If I might just mention the wording in the U19 laws where the wheeled scrum is of course followed by the same side putting in (having to go to 90 for a turnover) ?
"...the referee orders another scrum....."

But let us not forget that all this only relates to the 'last play' of a match doesn't it?

Personally I can live without an IRB ruling as I only ever assess up to 4/5... but from an academic viewpoint it might be interesting as the wording in the laws is ambiguous perhaps.. ( do not wish to keep stating what my view is!) :)

Robert Burns
08-11-05, 18:11
I think it should be fairly easy that this is what it should be:

If scrum collapses or needs to be reset because of problems not relating to a turnover then the game continues and the scrum is reset as you are resetting the same scrum in leiu of the penalty.

If the scrum is wheeledthrough 90 degrees, a new scrum is required (to the other team), time is over, full time whistle blows as this is not the scrum ordered in place of the penalty.

To me it's that simple.

Isn't it?

OB..
08-11-05, 21:11
I take a different line: the scrum is completed when we either have open play, or a separate (non-penalty) offence is committed. Losing the throw-in because of a wheel is not an offence.

I take the point about "new scrum", but I very much doubt if the IRB was thinking about the impact on a decision as to time running out.

I have sent the matter as a Point of Law for our meeting next Tuesday, to hear what our National Panel refs think. Next step, emailing Castlecroft (= refereeing HQ in England).

ExHookah
08-11-05, 21:11
I think it should be fairly easy that this is what it should be:

If scrum collapses or needs to be reset because of problems not relating to a turnover then the game continues and the scrum is reset as you are resetting the same scrum in leiu of the penalty.

If the scrum is wheeledthrough 90 degrees, a new scrum is required (to the other team), time is over, full time whistle blows as this is not the scrum ordered in place of the penalty.

To me it's that simple.

Isn't it?


This could be tough on the trailing team in certain cases though.

Picture this. Blue is trailing 15-19. They have Red pinned back, ref orders a scum about 10 meters out from the Red goal line, Red put in. Time expires as they are getting ready, so ref notes this is the last play of the game.

Now if Blue can take a clean strike against the head, then they have an attacking chance. If they put pressure on Blue so the clearance kick has a chance of being charged down then they have a chance.

However based on the logic above, if they wheel the scrum, to incur a turnover, then the ref could blow full time and never give them the chance to use their put in.

Robert Burns
09-11-05, 04:11
Indeed, it is after all full time, they should have done something sooner!

At the refs meeting today I asked this to our two resident panel refs (one being GP) and they both agreed with what I said before.

If the scrum is reset because of no fault (i.e. collapse, etc) then reset and carry on.
If scrum is wheeled and blown, thats a new scrum, full time blown.

If the scrum completes into open play it's obviouls that it's complete.

TheHookah,

If you take that sypathetic view, what about in the same scenario as you just said, blue get possession and kick it down field hoping to get to it first, red beats them but knocks on as he tries to pick it up. It would have been blues scrum, but it's full time.

We cannot be held responsible for the fact a team couldn't sort themselves out in the 80 minutes before the whistle blew by sympathising with them in the last 20 seconds.

Davet
09-11-05, 15:11
Ok guys - I think I'm convinced I was right in the first place and that the evil coach who inspired doubt my otherwise pure rugby heart is a snake in the grass merely chasing his own nefarious ends - as I should have realised, he is a rugby coach after all!

So - same scrum as before, reset and play on; wheeled scrum = new scrum = no-side.

With a good strong look at why it wheeled...there could be a penalty in there somewhere.

ex-lucy
09-11-05, 15:11
interesting point .... it took 47 mins to have a completed scrum in the France v Oz match ... not counting free kicks, penalties etc ... so someone told me ..

OB..
09-11-05, 16:11
But penalties and free kicks DO count.

Deeps
18-11-05, 11:11
... blue get possession and kick it down field hoping to get to it first, red beats them but knocks on as he tries to pick it up. It would have been blues scrum, but it's full time. ...

Robert, then you have two additional scenarios, (1) you would of course need to play advantage from the knock on and only you can decide when the advantage is over or possibly, (2) to consider whether it was deliberate in order to force you to call the game!

Robert Burns
18-11-05, 19:11
Robert, then you have two additional scenarios, (1) you would of course need to play advantage from the knock on and only you can decide when the advantage is over or possibly, (2) to consider whether it was deliberate in order to force you to call the game!
1, Normally no advantage from a kick ahead as there is no other players from the non offending team around.

2, I think you would be viewed very badly if you decided anything other than a VERY obvious knock on was deliberate, if it just goes through the hands, it's one of those things, full time.

(IMO)