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Glyndwr
20-11-05, 13:11
Arising from yesterday's Wales v RSA match.

I hope somebody here has a recording of the match, as I would like your opinions on a few matters re: cards.

Percy Montgomery received two yellows and was dismissed. I thought that both yellows were quite harsh. Any opinions?

In the build-up to the Welsh try, I thought there was certainly one and possibly two yellow card offences committed by RSA. When the try came from the advantage, it was as though the offences were forgotten.

Again, any opinions on the offence or offences being cardable, and if they were, should the ref have issued the card(s) after awarding the try?

Jacko
20-11-05, 13:11
I didn't see the game. If the offences you talk about in the build up to a try were just killing it/slowing it, then I would forget them if a try were scored, because it becomes immaterial. If they were for foul play, they definitely shouldn't be forgotten.

didds
20-11-05, 19:11
well, I would hope that a ref - even if he didn;t card the perpetrators in the scenario being discussed above - at l;east had a word with them and the captain to the effect that their card was marked ....

didds

OB..
20-11-05, 23:11
I have just checked Montgomery's yellow cards on the tape. Here is what I saw.

In the first case, Montgomery grabbed Shane Williams by the shoulders from behind. Williams turned, presumably to try and pass the ball, so Montgomery took him down with a sort of judo sacrifice throw: he pulled him back across his leg. This lifted Williams in the air, and he came down on his side as Montgomery also hit the deck.

I don't like that sort of tackle, because the tackler, being off balance, has no real control after lifting the opponent. To my mind a clear penalty, but the yellow may have been partly a result of an even clearer warning earlier to Montgomery when he delivered a late shoulder barge to Cooper. He got a strong caution for that. Otherwise yellow would have seemed a little harsh to me.

Of course there were two offences cited - holding Williams back off the ball first. That one was not clear on the tape because they did not replay it, and it was long shot only.

In the second case, the first point of contact as Montgomery came charging across, was on the shoulder as Williams turned away and apparently started to duck under the tackle. He also raised his right elbow, thus forcing Montgomery's arm up on to his neck. Montgomery did not manage to hold on, but had generated enough sideways force for Williams to go into touch. I can see why it looked bad, but IMHO much of that was due to Williams' actions. A harsh yellow and certainly not worth red. Maybe not even a penalty? I'm glad there was no penalty try.

If it had been a high tackle, should it have been a penalty try? Hard to argue against. Williams was about 2 metres out and two metres from the try line. Nobody else was going to reach him in time. It's the old question: if the tackle was illegal, should you discount the defender altogether or should you consider what would have happened with a lower tackle? I usually side with the attacker - the defender has blown his chance.

robertti
22-11-05, 14:11
I think we have all marginally agreed that the first offence had a merit for a yellow card (maybe not on its own, but especially after the warning he received for his earlier indiscretion).
Doesn't the fact about his 2nd indiscretion come down to this, he was already on a yellow card regarding high tackles and hence any further high tackle he committed would result in a red. I mean, I know its not an official law, but if a player had already been carded for a high tackle and had returned to the field and then comitted another high tackle, it would not matter if the tackle on its own did not warrant a yellow card. The fact that he was already on a yellow card would mean it would be treated in a completely different way.
I remember refereeing a School Grand Final and I yellow carded one player for a high tackle, and then he came back on and committed another, less serious high tackle. In that case I didn't red card him, but had recurring thoughts about it afterwards.
Because of this, I cannot disagree with Stuart Dickinson's decision and definitely don't think Bryce Lawrence was just trying to get his face on TV.

What are some other views?

Bryan
22-11-05, 14:11
What are some other views?
This one here (http://www.planet-rugby.com/Off_The_Field/Laws_And_Referees/Law_Discussions/story_47548.shtml)is interesting. Not sure if I agree with it, but good food for thought.
Bryce Lawrence seems to be getting a lot of flack these days. I thought he had a good day in France 2 weekends ago, but the TJing role seems to be getting criticized.
-Bryan