PDA

View Full Version : Where do you stand at a line-out?



The umpire
18-11-08, 18:11
I'm being assessed/advised on Saturday and have previously been advised that my positioning at the line out isn't as good as it could be - unfortunately there is no consistency in their advice on where to stand. So, learned colleagues, acknowledging that you may move occasionally, where do stand most of the time?


http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/imagehosting/thumb_82449230f93d196d.jpg (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=200)

BillBu
18-11-08, 19:11
personally A, can see any shenanigans in the lineout, can see for straight throw and can see the offside lines all at once. if theres funny goings on at the back i tend to move back a bit, between A and B for a better view.

andyscott
18-11-08, 19:11
A. but slightly back, usually level with Scrum half (receiver), so I can see no2 and no4 jumper.

I will move to D but again level with receiver, if there is an issue at the back of the line, later in the match.

Scarlet Al
18-11-08, 19:11
No consistency to advice has a familiar ring to it here too...

I'd go A.

Deeps
18-11-08, 19:11
Primarily A but my A is in the tram lines between B and C. If within about 8 metres of the goal line, I will always go goal side. When at A, I need to see the thrower's arm, the two/three pairs of pods and the defending side backs. I will vary my position, in order to keep players on their toes and will move to a point a little deeper than D but out of the 9, 10 channel for about 30% of line outs.

gillburt
18-11-08, 20:11
On the recent ELRA we were taught "A", and "G" if the back of the lineout were playing silly b*ggers.

Once the lineout was "won" (assuming in your diagram that red win it), try to get to "F" - but not always possible in real-time especially if jumpers do a tap back.

Dickie E
18-11-08, 21:11
I always stand at A for first couple of lineouts so that the players can see me if & when I issue instructions.

If I have competent TJs I'll likely go 50/50 between A & F. When in 'red' zone I'll favour F and let the TJ look after the short throw.

If I have no competent TJs I'll go 80% at A.

I've never stood in B, C, D or E.

If no assessor I'll sometimes go to G (but don't tell OB!).

OB..
19-11-08, 00:11
Rather than advising a referee where to stand, I tend to ask why he chooses such-and-such a position.

I agree that slightly further back than A is a good place to start because it gives you a good view of thrower, receiver, and many of the lineout players, plus offside lines.

F is good as a change, to give you a different perspective, or because you think something is going on at the back.
BCDE seem to offer little advantage, and increase the risk of getting in the way.

As Dickie_E remembered, I don't like G unless there is a very specific reason. The usual answer I get is " to see the crooked throws". You can judge those well enough by the actions of the players. Being in line at the back means that as soon as the lines close (players going for the ball), you can't see what is happening at the front. If you use G, be prepared to move almost at once.

I like Brian Ravenhill's analogy of venetian blinds: by being at an angle to the lineout, you can see through it to some extent.

Let's not concentrate too hard on static positions. Don't forget to move to get a better view as play develops.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
19-11-08, 08:11
I have had my last two advisor's reports saying I don't vary my position at the LO enough.

I usually start with A (and deeper down trams) and F later mainly to appease the Advisor. The others tend to put you in the way.

I also had an advisor suggest going on the defensive side Blue (call it the mirror image of C) on red throw in blue 22 in case they (red) barrel through and score - the logic being you are in a better position to see a try/held up.

One to use if you want to?

PaulDG
19-11-08, 09:11
I also had an advisor suggest going on the defensive side Blue (call it the mirror image of C) on red throw in blue 22 in case they (red) barrel through and score - the logic being you are in a better position to see a try/held up.

I've been told that too.

My next assessor then advised me that I was going to the defensive side on most of the line outs (most were in the 22..) and that this was poor as I wouldn't be able to spot the defending offsides as easily. He said I should only go on the defensive side when the line out is within 5-10 metres of the goal line.

Just as players would love to have complete consistency from referees, it would be nice if we could have consistency from assessors... (and not just about positioning at the KO.)

tim White
19-11-08, 09:11
Been doing some advising this season, I suggest A MOST of the time. It covers every single player on the park for a start, and they can see you looking at them. Go where you need to if there is a problem, go to a position where you can cover the expected throw (if it mostly goes to 2 or 4 it is reasonable to assume it will continue). I like to have the thrower in peripheral vision to see when the throw actually happens/early jumps.
I guarantee when you go to the back the throw will be short. At least from the front position long throws are relatively slow in coming down again so you have time to start running there. BUT varying your position occasionally can keep players honest, especially if you do this after they have made their calls and don't have time to take advantage of your new position. I agree go with the throwing side most often unless near the tryline where in-goal decisions take precedence.

ex-lucy
19-11-08, 09:11
depends .. on level of game and skill factors and weather conditions, recognised tactics/ game plans, precedence etc...

variable but mostly A
esp at start of match, inside 22m and if we have had 'cuddles' recently.
What i do though is run to the back .. eye ball the defensive #10, thumbs up or make signal to push back ... run to the front and vary my position around A, so sometimes i am eye balling the oppo 2 line jumper or sometimes eye balling the oppo hooker or sometimes i stand alongside the thrower

if April or Sept i will definitely look to vary more often, e.g. go to back.

PaulDG
19-11-08, 09:11
One other thing...

I have been getting slightly higher level games this season and I've noticed that I get far better co-operation from the backs at line outs than I got when first starting out. 4th teams and Vets utterly ignore their own offsides* all the time (which is a nightmare for beginner refs!).

The thirds/seconds and occasional low level 1sts I get now are far more willing to co-operate - it's not just that I've got better at noticing!

*While moaning about opposition offsides (some real, others not) all the time, obviously.

Phil E
19-11-08, 10:11
On my last assesment I was told to vary my position continually.

Deeps
19-11-08, 11:11
Umpire, I think you have a pretty consistent consensus there and some good tips too.

ex-lucy
19-11-08, 12:11
Phil
hmm. pinch of salt ... what if you use this advice and then think .. time to go the back .. and red 2 has used red front jumper on all previous occasions?
or red front prop has taken previous simple pass at front?
or red front prop and blue hooker have had a 'cuddle' recently?
or it is p1ssing down with rain and hooker is 55 and cant get it up.. over front jumper?
or it is windy etc etc.

i think you have to use a dose of pragmatism with this sort of advice.
As a line out player (previosuly) you and I know that in midwinter with low skills on show, the ball is not going to go the back .. which means if you are there you will get caught out by a front throw.
I say it is more important to read the game and anticipate where it is most likely to go ...
maybe when at half way, vary position a bit more to show the 7s you are present but in critical phases .... front is where it's at, at Levels 8-15.

i honestly think that assessors use this line as a get out. They have not much else to say as an 'area for development' and so say this.
I do vary my position .. and still sometimes get it as a devlp area.
Same as 'looks off the pace' .. cant help the way i look
and could use preventative shouts more .. did you not hear me when i was on the other touch line?

PaulDG
19-11-08, 12:11
...and could use preventative shouts more .. did you not hear me when i was on the other touch line?

Oh that's a bugbear...

"You gave x penalties for hands in the ruck.. Perhaps you should be calling ruck earlier or projecting your voice more..."

Perhaps if the bar stewards kept their hands off the ball when they d*mm well know they're in a ruck!!!!!

Simon Thomas
19-11-08, 12:11
Umpire - I offer same advice as OB, and agree with most of the others Deeps, PaulDG, ex-Lucy etc.

I am a level 5/6 assessor, as well as level 8 ref, so see it from both sides.

Your positioning should reflect what is happening in the match. If criticised for your positioning (and you feel 100% on safe ground) ask what offences you missed due to your poistioning - you may however get a nasty shock, so don't be confrontational.

Where do you need to be to see not straight (look at bodies, shoulders & heads), along-line / through-line offences, early jump/lift, delayed throw / dummy, 2m gaps for oppo thrower and receiver (if they have one), backs 10m (defnce AND attack !), and to transition to next phase of play (which is why for an attacking line 10m out you may go to defensive side "A" position).

The A position (a bit further back and out at an angle is perfect) is where you should start to get your control (and set out your stall for the match) - metre gap, oppo hpooker back 2m, receivers 2m, thrower get it in, etc.

If all you get are front pod (#2) jumpers calls then stay at front - an d amke a show of one trip to back and chat to flankers (tail gunners) re across the line early (some assessors like that !).

If you do go to the back never stand at G (international refs may but English assessors don't like it as it cuts down your views if you haven't got a team of 3 ). F is better !
D is a nice alternative to make a change - keep the players guessing where you are !
I would never use B, C or E personally.

In all cases adopt an open body stance so you maximise your field of vision.

ex-lucy
19-11-08, 22:11
also ... within 10m .. i go to A in reverse. so that i am on defensive 5m line or nearby.
Phil
continual repositioning..
do you mean within one line out or within the match?

Phil E
20-11-08, 10:11
also ... within 10m .. i go to A in reverse. so that i am on defensive 5m line or nearby.
Phil
continual repositioning..
do you mean within one line out or within the match?

I nwas told to stand in a different position at every lineout.

The umpire
20-11-08, 18:11
Thank you all for your input. There seems to be a concensus around A, but a bit further back than shown, with an occasional move to D to F-ish, but after they've made the LO call. We'll see what Saturday's advisor has to say after the game.

Emmet Murphy
25-01-09, 11:01
Just to go back to this thread - I recently watched a Level 5 ref doing a Level 8 match and on a few occasions (about 20-25%) he was in position A but deep in touch - ie alongside where the TJ was standing ... he was quick enough to move when the ball was thrown in and presumably he wanted to get that far back so he could see the thrower and be facing the two lines simultaneously ... just wondering what people's thoughts were on that. I might give it a go when my back heals and I can start reffing again.

Donal1988
25-01-09, 11:01
I normally stand at the tail of the lineout unless im doing a youth game with no lifting or its a lineout close to the goalline - in which case ill stand closer to touchline.

AlanT
25-01-09, 12:01
I always use A-ish early in the game to get the two players at the front to set the gap to my satisfaction and for the rest of the match, to get rapport with the throwers and so that I am in eye contact to establish my presence with the players.

A-ish is then my position for most future lineouts on the basis that I can see most.

I will go to F-ish at times ... maybe 10-20% of the time to make sure the players at the back of the lineout know I'm not ignoring them - sometimes I'll switch from A-ish to F-ish at late notice.

Exceptions are:

1. If all the throws are to the front then I'll stay there - sometimes all match.

2. If we're on or near the 5m line I'll be at the reverse of A-ish.

3. If the sun is a problem and F-ish gives me a better view, I'll use it a lot more (yesterday I was there for about 80% of the linouts on one touchline).

Deeps
25-01-09, 13:01
I normally stand at the tail of the lineout unless im doing a youth game with no lifting or its a lineout close to the goalline - in which case ill stand closer to touchline.

Donal, how do you monitor the thrower, the front jumpers, the 9s, whether the ball has travelled 5 metres and both offensive and defensive back lines from there or do you have appointed ARs for your games?

OB..
25-01-09, 13:01
I always use A-ish early in the game to get the two players at the front to set the gap to my satisfaction and for the rest of the match, to get rapport with the throwers and so that I am in eye contact to establish my presence with the players.

A-ish is then my position for most future lineouts on the basis that I can see most.

I will go to F-ish at times ... maybe 10-20% of the time to make sure the players at the back of the lineout know I'm not ignoring them - sometimes I'll switch from A-ish to F-ish at late notice.

Exceptions are:

1. If all the throws are to the front then I'll stay there - sometimes all match.

2. If we're on or near the 5m line I'll be at the reverse of A-ish.

3. If the sun is a problem and F-ish gives me a better view, I'll use it a lot more (yesterday I was there for about 80% of the linouts on one touchline).
That was the advice I gave to yesterday's referee, who tended to stand next to the thrower, almost impeding his action. He did go to the back occasionally - and found himself looking into the sun!

Davet
25-01-09, 17:01
I tend to see refs use G in youth games, in fact it seems that youth refs almost prefer to use G.

When I ask them, it seems that they feel that it gives them the best chance of seeing not straight, and across the line offences.

Personally I find it one of the worst positions, and prefer A with 30% F thrown in. The difference may be that on 5-10m line outs I would stand on the defending side, regardlesss of whose throw. So either A if defemders throw, or mirror image of C if attackers throw.

nealed
25-01-09, 20:01
an assessor advised me to vary A and F
A at the start of the game moving to F later on
because i am shorter than most he suggested that I use F more often, which i did for a while. however, more recently i have reverted more to A but trying to move quickly up the line if ball thrown to back
Kids much more at A because the ball stays at the front.
no idea if that helps, the consensus seems to be A most of the time F otherwise, opp A within 10m
seems sensible to me and i think i will go with that in my own games

Phil E
26-01-09, 11:01
I have to ask what (from the answers given) would seem to be a really stupid question.

Where does it show you these position A, B, C, D, etc?

I cant find reference to them in any of my literature or notes.

Am I the only one who doesn't know what you are all refering to? Or the only one who dares ask?

Donal1988
26-01-09, 11:01
Phil - very very top post. I hadnt a clue what was going on either

DrSTU
26-01-09, 11:01
Just to go back to this thread - I recently watched a Level 5 ref doing a Level 8 match and on a few occasions (about 20-25%) he was in position A but deep in touch - ie alongside where the TJ was standing ... he was quick enough to move when the ball was thrown in and presumably he wanted to get that far back so he could see the thrower and be facing the two lines simultaneously ... just wondering what people's thoughts were on that. I might give it a go when my back heals and I can start reffing again.

I was actually going to mention this but forgot. I don't "stand" anywhere at the line out. I will usually start at A for the majority of the game and then arc out to 45 degress after the "trigger" of the ball being thrown in. This way I can see the all important not straight:drool: and then focus on the jump/contest from a much better angle. Sometimes I'll start near the front pod and jog backwards (ball coming towards me) so I can see what the jumpers are doing and get a steal on quick taps.

gillburt
26-01-09, 13:01
I think an important thing is to move around - keeps you on your toes and the players

"A" requires you to be fast and fit, to get to the next breakdown without being last, but is a good position for kids.

In my last few games, I've conciously tried to stand in all the different positions just to see what they are like and how they differ from each other, +ve and -ve. I even stood next to the scrum half on one occasion, spooked the life out of him! :biggrin: but the jumpers and lifters behaved like angels as a result

They all offer something, some more than others.