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Jonboy
19-12-08, 11:12
Defending team player noticed when waiting for a conversion from the attacking team that the ball had fallen off the kicking tee. The kicker, without asking permission from the referee, walked towards the ball. The defender ran towards the ball. The kicker noticed the defender approaching and picked up the ball. The defender pushed the ball out of the hands of the kicker towards the kickers own try line.

The referee awarded a scrum to the kicker's team.

1. If the ball is still live why wasn't it a penalty for a deliberate knock-on?

2. If the ball is not still alive doesn't the game restart with a drop kick from the halfway line as the attempt at the conversion is considered over?
:(

PaulDG
19-12-08, 11:12
If the ball is still live why wasn't it a penalty for a deliberate knock-on?

It's not "live".


2. If the ball is not still alive doesn't the game restart with a drop kick from the halfway line as the attempt at the conversion is considered over?
:(

I agree. I don't understand the decision made. Perhaps the referee made a mistake.

Pablo
19-12-08, 11:12
What a bizarre decision. The only way the game can restart after a conversion, whether successful or not, is with a restart drop-kick from the halfway line.

The charging defender has prevented the conversion attempt legally, so no conversion can be awarded. Go to halfway and kick off as normal.

OB..
19-12-08, 12:12
Law 9.3 (a) All players of the opposing team must retire to their goal line and must not overstep that line until the kicker begins the approach to kick or starts to kick.

In my book, walking towards a ball that has fallen off the tee does not constitute an "approach to kick".

Law 9.B.2 (c) If the ball falls over before the kicker begins the approach to kick, the referee permits the kicker to replace it without excessive delay. While the ball is replaced, the opponents must stay behind their goal line.

This does not actually require the player to seek permission.

However the situation is a little confused. I would stop the charge but not ban a further one, and allow the ball to be replaced (within the original time limit).

Deeps
19-12-08, 12:12
I disagree. Any movement towards a set ball at a conversion kick is fair game from the defenders' point of view; there are so many different styles of kicking that once the ball has been set and the kicker has walked away to prepare to kick then any further approach to the ball must be assumed to be part of the preparation to kick unless the kicker seeks permission from the referee to approach. Kickers should never assume that they have an automatic right to approach to readjust or reset the ball. There is still a competitive edge at a conversion and defenders' rights need protection too.

Of course, once the run up has been started then the attempt at goal must be made, there is no further opportunity to reset the ball.

stuart3826
19-12-08, 13:12
I reckon that although the kicker doesn't have to ask permission to re-set the ball, much confusion could be avoided if he did. Back to the middle then!

SimonSmith
19-12-08, 13:12
What a bizarre decision. The only way the game can restart after a conversion, whether successful or not, is with a restart drop-kick from the halfway line.

JUst because I'm being pedantic - you sure about that? :chin::wink:

OB..
19-12-08, 13:12
I think you are all being overly harsh.

I do not believe that the defender really thought the player was starting to kick. He was just trying it on. Why let him?

The kicker did not infringe any laws. Why penalise him?

Simon Thomas
19-12-08, 13:12
I was always coached to, and expected to, ask the referee's permission to replace the ball if it blew or fell over during a conversion kick before I started my kick (or as my school said 'offered to kick'.)

Therefore I would always ask the ref (even if I hadn't started to kick).

In this incident, it sounds as if ref was not flexible enough in his management and got it plain wrong in awarding a scrum !

SimonSmith
19-12-08, 13:12
What a bizarre decision. The only way the game can restart after a conversion, whether successful or not, is with a restart drop-kick from the halfway line.

JUst because I'm being pedantic - you sure about that? :chin::wink:

Pablo
19-12-08, 13:12
Alright, you pedant. Or a penalty, if one is awarded after the try has been scored. Happy now? :nono:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
19-12-08, 15:12
I had this happen in a game I did in September 2008. It was a reappointment L10 vs L11 friendly cos of an EDF clash.

Green had scored a try and were lining up conversion. I was stood near kicker writing score in my book when Red prop "appeared" :eek: and picked the ball up which was lying on its side.

It had blown over green had not asked me which was why I was still engrossed in recording the try - he had gone back to the ball and Red Prop has run out.

Prospective kicker and sharp prop looked at me! Shit! "He never asked you" says old father time (the prop) - true says I - shit :sad: (cogs whirring furiously by now)

Lets go and re-start at halfway!!!

I'm glad it was 55-0 to green and nothing hinged on my lapse in concentration.:sleep:

What's people's thoughts about asking/charging/kicking (drop or off the floor) if this has happended to you?

Davet
19-12-08, 16:12
I think OB has the right approach, basically "manage it".

Much grief would have been saved if the player had asked - but at the same time it's perfectly clear that this wasn't a run up to kick.

Just reset the situation - don't disallow a further charge - and tell the kicker to make sure he asks another time.

No big deal to be made.

didds
19-12-08, 16:12
I bow yto your superior knowledge on this chaps ... but i would say that I'd wager that 99% of rugby people would go with the "allowed to charge" option on the basis that the historical advice has always seemed to be "must ask the ref" etc. At least 99% of rugby people other than refs here anyway ;-)



didds

Lee Lifeson-Peart
19-12-08, 16:12
I think OB has the right approach, basically "manage it".



This pre-supposes you're looking at what was happening in the first place - I wasn't :o

I always stay switched on at conversions now and record the score walking out from the goal line.

chopper15
19-12-08, 16:12
From your comments, I'm beginning to think Grant Fox was right when I asked him did he seek the ref's OK before he approached the tee to realign the ball. He told me to F**K OFF!

Simon Thomas
19-12-08, 16:12
Can't imagine why Chopper ? :chin: :) :wink:

tim White
19-12-08, 17:12
As ref did you honestly believe the player was making an approach to kick the ball over the bar? If you didn't then the defender cannot claim it either.:cool:

Deeps
19-12-08, 18:12
From your comments, I'm beginning to think Grant Fox was right when I asked him did he seek the ref's OK before he approached the tee to realign the ball. He told me to F**K OFF!

I came across Grant Fox by chance in a hotel bar in Princes Street, Edinburgh, 1980 I think, after a Murrayfield international; scared the living daylights out of me! :eek:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
19-12-08, 21:12
I came across Grant Fox by chance in a hotel bar in Princes Street, Edinburgh, 1980 I think, after a Murrayfield international; scared the living daylights out of me! :eek:

Deeps. Are you sure you mean Grant Fox or 1980 -he would have been 17/18 in 1980? He's about 6 months older than me!!

Actually I can't imagine why you'd be scared of GF in his prime unless you'd just given away a penalty 50m out bang in front.

Dixie
20-12-08, 10:12
Grant Fox: born 1962, first played All Black rugby 1985. Scored one try in 46 tests. Never one to run the ball, I'd concur with Lee - at his most dangerous leaning the ball forward somewhere in his opponents' half. Playing weight: 11 stone 5 lbs - never a frightening specimen!

Deeps
20-12-08, 12:12
Grant Fox: born 1962, first played All Black rugby 1985. Scored one try in 46 tests. Never one to run the ball, I'd concur with Lee - at his most dangerous leaning the ball forward somewhere in his opponents' half. Playing weight: 11 stone 5 lbs - never a frightening specimen!

You are quite right, I got the wrong Grant, it was Mr Batty in 1979. The All Blacks had beaten the Scots and later I had quite accidentally found myself in the team hotel. Mr Batty blatted his way through the swing doors as I was coming in the other way with a look of invincibility while clearly still pumped up from the win. Instantly recognisable, he scared the living poop out of me in that one moment.

SimonSmith
22-12-08, 00:12
Alright, you pedant. Or a penalty, if one is awarded after the try has been scored. Happy now? :nono:


:clap: :)

nobackchat
27-04-15, 23:04
Black scores try at full time under the posts. Conversion kick needed to win the game. Black kicker lines set up tee and ball about 10 meters from posts, in-goal line. 1 step back, 2 steps forward, kick and ball goes over and through the posts. Charging White players blast into the kicker who gets crumpled.

In the attempt to block the kick, what is White's responsibility?

chbg
28-04-15, 00:04
Not to take out the kicker. It will certainly need strong management. If you see it as being malicious, then definite RC (x2). No affect on this match, but they can wait for the Disciplinary Committee reaction.

mark.lucas
07-05-15, 12:05
Just caught up with this thread.

Agree the decision was wrong, but suspect the referee confused it with a penalty kick to goal (as indicated by the kicking team) where the sanction for not kicking at goal e.g. a quick tap or punt to touch, is a scrum to the non-kicking team [21.5 (b)] - and I can only quote that straight away as it happened to me last month.

Browner
07-05-15, 14:05
Black scores try at full time under the posts. Conversion kick needed to win the game. Black kicker lines set up tee and ball about 10 meters from posts, in-goal line. 1 step back, 2 steps forward, kick and ball goes over and through the posts. Charging White players blast into the kicker who gets crumpled.

In the attempt to block the kick, what is White's responsibility?

They are permitted to charge to prevent a kick being succesfull , but that doesn't include fouling the kicker.

I'd say that Law 5.7(e) mean that if the foul takes place immediately following the strike of the ball , then its before the game has concluded, because the conversion hasn't yet been awarded or ruled unsuccesful by the referee, in which case it's a PK restart.

????